Ground fighting

[drleungjohn]

Just curious-how many people who do"groundfighting" actually practice on concrete-?

While I have great respect for it,I see it as a feeling game between the two people and the ground as the 3rd part of the triangle-BUT-IMHO,The takedown is the key-and the ground hits pretty hard-

[t_niehoff]

Just curious-how many people who do"groundfighting" actually practice on concrete-?

While I have great respect for it,I see it as a feeling game between the two people and the ground as the 3rd part of the triangle-BUT-IMHO,The takedown is the key-and the ground hits pretty hard-

What would be the point of training on concrete?

Here's a more important question: what is your experience groundfighting? Because if you don't have some siognificant experience with it, you are just speculating.

[leejunfan]

What would be the point of training on concrete?

Here's a more important question: what is your experience groundfighting? Because if you don't have some siognificant experience with it, you are just speculating.

Terrence... I can answer that.

At our school we train with concrete in mind. I personally have grappled on concrete many times and it's much different then mats. Concrete is unforgiving. Rocks, glass and so on..... it makes you want to stay on your feet. I fought someone on the ground back in the 80's... I submitted him by locking him up then smashing his head repeatedly on the ground. His head was only about 1 to 2 inches from the ground.... but that's all it took.

So the point of training on concrete is...(drum roll please) because THAT's where a grappler will be in a street fight.

[Knifefighter]

What would be the point of training on concrete?

I have trained groundfighting on concrete because there are things one needs to know about what will happen if you end up there... and it is also interesting to go against guys who think they can be good on the ground without utilizing mats.

There are a few things (although, not that many) that are different from training on mats. The only huge consideration is the head slamming issue. You can really take advantage of the mount with this in mind. At the same time it's important to keep this issue in mind when you guard someone up or work upper body submissions from the guard. Another issue, although most people don't usually notice it until later, is missing a punch from the mount or inside the guard and hitting the ground with your fist.

One thing about the guys who say they train on concrete only... they are never any good at ground fighting (or throws) because they can't train as comprehensively as those who utilze mats. The person who trains groundfighting, takedowns, and throws on mats will usually destroy the person who trains his stuff only on concrete if the fight goes to the ground.

People who don't utilize mats are usually relatively easy to take to the ground because they are not used to defending full on takedown attacks from people who are knowledgeable of takedowns.

[sunfist]

To me, grappling becomes a lot more martial once you have a hard surface factored in, a good sweep can be a fight ender rather than just a positional reversal.

But why is this in the wing chun section, and due to such, how can this thread not end badly?

[Knifefighter]

I fought someone on the ground back in the 80's... I submitted him by locking him up then smashing his head repeatedly on the ground.

1- How do you submit somone in a real fight?

2- How do you submit someone by knocking his head into the ground?

[Knifefighter]

To me, grappling becomes a lot more martial once you have a hard surface factored in, a good sweep can be a fight ender rather than just a positional reversal.

What sweep from the ground would end the fight?

[sunfist]

Anything where they go down on their head I figure. Leg over arm sweep as an example. Youd probably need the opponent at least semi-standing to get the momentum though.

[t_niehoff]

In my view (after only four years of ground training), when on the ground, the predicate skill upon which everything else depends is positional control. Can you bite, poke the eyes, etc.? Sure -- if you have positional control (like the mount). But you won't be able to do it (unless the guy's is a stooge) without positional control. Want to submit the guy or bang his head against the ground? What permits that? Positional control.

But that is not an easy skill to develop. The only way to develop (not just learn) that predicate skill is by lots and lots of rolling against good people with that in mind. We need to be able to move effectively while on the ground, know how to escape when in an inferior position and seek positional superiority, how once we get it how to maintain it, the oportunities that open up along the way and when we get it, etc. All of that takes a lot of rolling against good people. And if you try to get that training while on concrete, you'll just end up injured (and not training).

For me, mats are like any other form of safety/protective equipment (wearing a cup or mouthpiece, for example)-- they are there to minimize injuries and permit us to train realistically. If I do judo, do I need to actually throw people on concrete to grasp that the mat helps to protect them from injury? Do I need to take off my cup to grasp that I don't want to take a shot to the boys?

[leejunfan]

1- How do you submit somone in a real fight?

2- How do you submit someone by knocking his head into the ground?

well first of all if you've seen clips of my school you know we have mats. This is just in response to your post above. Mats are important but they also give grapplers a false sense of reality when it comes to ground impact. Slam your knee, elbow, head or whatever on concrete as hard as you do on mats and the difference is noticable to say the least. I don't train with Crapplers and I'm not a grappling instructor. I am in fact a student of grappling (CSW). My instructor is a fantastic grappler and trains MMA fighters. He also trains Law Enforcement and more so he has his eye on the ring and the street.

To answer the questions above. The guy couldn't move to defend his head hitting the ground so after about 5 knocks on the noggin he screamed "OK OK STOP!" and the fight was over. aka...submission

But you won't be able to do it (unless the guy's is a stooge) without positional control. Want to submit the guy or bang his head against the ground? What permits that? Positional control.

I couldn't agree more. Our teacher stresses position so much I hear it in my sleep. Good post my friend.

For me, mats are like any other form of safety/protective equipment (wearing a cup or mouthpiece, for example)-- they are there to minimize injuries and permit us to train realistically.

I agree with you to a point. Safety eqiupment prolongs the training but can also train one to take more abuse then they have to because of that protection. Take Kali for example. The difference between 99% of the standard Kali tournements and let's say ummm..... the Dog Brothers (you knew this was coming Terrence ) is that the guys with the tons of padding just race in swinging wildly and never feel the impact of the stick.... so it becomes more like a point sparring tournement. But the Dog Brothers?.... well they can really feel the sticks because they don't wear much protection.

Now I'm not saying go train on concrete every single day. That's like telling someone to get into a street fight everyday to REALLY train realistically. I'm saying give some thought to the protection the mat gives and ask yourself..... what will that do to me on concrete.

Peace.

Good stuff everyone... very productive

[Knifefighter]

well first of all if you've seen clips of my school you know we have mats. This is just in response to your post above. Mats are important but they also give grapplers a false sense of reality when it comes to ground impact.

B.S. False sense of security. LOL... the guys who have the false sense of security are the people who think this line of cr@p.

Grapplers know exactly the damage that happens when you get slammed because they do it all the time. They also know how to take advantage of this against an opponent who is not used to taking full force throws to the ground.

Not to mention the fact that hitting your knee or elbow on a hard surface in a real fight will not even be noticed until at least an hour or two after a fight.

To answer the questions above. The guy couldn't move to defend his head hitting the ground so after about 5 knocks on the noggin he screamed "OK OK STOP!" and the fight was over. aka...submission

You slammed a guy's head into the concrete 5 times and he was still conscious to say "OK, stop"?

Um... OK.

My instructor is a fantastic grappler and trains MMA fighters. He also trains Law Enforcement and more so he has his eye on the ring and the street.

Really... who is this?
Which grappling/MMA trainer are you working grappling with?

I don't train with Crapplers and I'm not a grappling instructor. I am in fact a student of grappling (CSW).

How can you be a student of grappling when you don't train with grapplers?

[leejunfan]

knifefighter... I'm not poking fun at you man... really I'm not... but you seriously need to work on your reading skills and not be so quick to jump on everyones ass. My posts are not hostile...... I'm not insulting anyone.... and I'm trying to hear boths sides. You on the other hand seem to want nothing more then to tell everyone here how wrong they are and how right you are. Let me respond to your post above.

B.S. False sense of security. LOL... the guys who have the false sense of security are the people who think this line of cr@p.

I'll agree with you to a point. I wasn't saying that the concrete is a fight finisher... just saying the injuries are more intense. Don't read too much into what I said and try to be less hostile

You slammed a guy's head into the concrete 5 times and he was still conscious to say "OK, stop"?

Um... OK.

Did you miss the part where his head was only an inch or two off the ground? Hard to do a lot of damage when we're both on the ground, he's tied up.... I'm partially tied up with my hand on the back of his head pushing it into the concrete. Was I trying to cave his head in?.... was I trying to kill the guy? was I trying to just hurt him enough to end the fight?..... hmmm.... 1 to 2 inches...... that's all... and not much leverage. Again...... you jumped too quick on this one.

Really... who is this?
Which grappling/MMA trainer are you working grappling with?

We train with Guru Kevin Seaman once a month. My partner Erik is his student and holds a grappling class every week. Kevin couches a team, lead by his son, and they are kicking major ass. Check them out at http://www.myspace.com/erikcharles

Quote:
I don't train with Crapplers and I'm not a grappling instructor. I am in fact a student of grappling (CSW).

How can you be a student of grappling when you don't train with grapplers?

You're a Grappler and don't know the word Crappler? Crappling is like the joke word for crappy grappling on Bullshido...... don't you frequent that forum?

Anyway, I'm not here to get into a flame war with you or anyone because quite frankly I don't seek your approval. I'll stand back and lurk a little. Have fun with the debate.

[t_niehoff]

well first of all if you've seen clips of my school you know we have mats. This is just in response to your post above. Mats are important but they also give grapplers a false sense of reality when it comes to ground impact. Slam your knee, elbow, head or whatever on concrete as hard as you do on mats and the difference is noticable to say the least.

In my view, mats don't give a false sense of reality when it comes to ground impact. No grappler I know of has this false sense of reality. Only people who don't train realisically have a false sense of reality IME.

I couldn't agree more. Our teacher stresses position so much I hear it in my sleep. Good post my friend.

But WCK is a "complete art"!

I agree with you to a point. Safety eqiupment prolongs the training but can also train one to take more abuse then they have to because of that protection. Take Kali for example. The difference between 99% of the standard Kali tournements and let's say ummm..... the Dog Brothers (you knew this was coming Terrence ) is that the guys with the tons of padding just race in swinging wildly and never feel the impact of the stick.... so it becomes more like a point sparring tournement. But the Dog Brothers?.... well they can really feel the sticks because they don't wear much protection.

It's not the same thing in my view. I think the whole notion that good grapplers just don't appreciate the reality of the ground (like cement or broken glass or whatever) is a POV from people who have no experience with good groundfighters/grapplers. They know. The problem is that people without that experience mistake tournament or even NHB ground tactics with street tactics. The physical skills are the same, how they are used (the tactics) change with the situation.

Now I'm not saying go train on concrete every single day. That's like telling someone to get into a street fight everyday to REALLY train realistically. I'm saying give some thought to the protection the mat gives and ask yourself..... what will that do to me on concrete.

If you are asking will I try to use the environment to my advantage -- of course. Just like if I have you trapped, standing up against a wall, I'll use that too. Maybe I'd try to smash your head into it. Do I need to train with real concrete walls to figure that smashing heads into concrette walls might work?

[Knifefighter]

I'll agree with you to a point. I wasn't saying that the concrete is a fight finisher... just saying the injuries are more intense.

No, what you were saying is that grapplers don't understand the implications of fighting on hard surfaces... someone with a basic understanding of grappling who had worked with accomplished grapplers would know that is not true.

[/QUOTE]
You're a Grappler and don't know the word Crappler? Crappling is like the joke word for crappy grappling on Bullshido...... don't you frequent that forum? [/QUOTE]

No, I already waste way too much time here. I don't have time to screw around other places too.

Anyway, I'm not here to get into a flame war with you or anyone because quite frankly I don't seek your approval.

I think you are the classic example of the theoretical TMA non-fighter who espouses theories but never actaully tries them out for real against other skilled opponents.

[unkokusai]

-IMHO,The takedown is the key-and the ground hits pretty hard-

Which is why everyone should train in wrestling.