Ground fighting

[AndrewS]

If you are asking will I try to use the environment to my advantage -- of course. Just like if I have you trapped, standing up against a wall, I'll use that too. Maybe I'd try to smash your head into it. Do I need to train with real concrete walls to figure that smashing heads into concrette walls might work?

Well, now that you mention it. . .

;-)

Joking aside, if you don't have a cage to train in, padding up a wall or a corner so it's a portion of your sparring space which you can drive people into and work this sort of thing, G&P etc. is a fine and useful idea.

There's a great school on Long Island I dropped into where a bunch of NYPD train- they had a d*mn car in the space, padded on the dangerous bits, for teaching both carjacking defensive scenarios and LEO skills for extracting people from vehicles.

There are a lot of different rings out there.

Andrew

[leejunfan]

knifefighter,

Ya know...... I'm nice...respectful even.... and yet you still want to be a ****.

You have the right to your opinion. You can call me whatever you wish. I honestly don't give a crap. All you ever do is come here and rip on TMA. Why waste your time? Are you THAT lonely and bored that you can't find a more productive place to use your time?

[Knifefighter]

Joking aside, if you don't have a cage to train in, padding up a wall or a corner so it's a portion of your sparring space which you can drive people into and work this sort of thing, G&P etc. is a fine and useful idea.

Exactly...
Of course the "concrete" guys will tell you it doesn't count because it is padded and they only train on hard surfaces.

[unkokusai]

One thing about the guys who say they train on concrete only... they are never any good at ground fighting (or throws) because they can't train as comprehensively as those who utilze mats. The person who trains groundfighting, takedowns, and throws on mats will usually destroy the person who trains his stuff only on concrete if the fight goes to the ground.

People who don't utilize mats are usually relatively easy to take to the ground because they are not used to defending full on takedown attacks from people who are knowledgeable of takedowns.

Exactly right!

[unkokusai]

Mats are important but they also give grapplers a false sense of reality when it comes to ground impact.

No, they don't.

[Knifefighter]

knifefighter,

Ya know...... I'm nice...respectful even.... and yet you still want to be a ****.

You have the right to your opinion. You can call me whatever you wish. I honestly don't give a crap. All you ever do is come here and rip on TMA. Why waste your time? Are you THAT lonely and bored that you can't find a more productive place to use your time?

Why am I ripping on you?

Because you go on an on about how your fighting looks like your training. You say you are a student of grappling, yet you make sweeping and misinformed generalizations about grappling and groundfighting.

You talk about Terrence and I arguing the same old tired arguments, so I offer a new idea. Show us clips of how your fighting and training are similar.

Instead, you make a big deal about seeing MY fighting clips, although I told you they look pretty much like most other MMA fighting and training.

Then I show you the clips and guess what? Suddendly you are not a "competitive" fighter and there is no evidence of you even sparring, let alone fighting.

Quite hypocritcal, don't you think?

[t_niehoff]

Well, now that you mention it. . .

;-)

Joking aside, if you don't have a cage to train in, padding up a wall or a corner so it's a portion of your sparring space which you can drive people into and work this sort of thing, G&P etc. is a fine and useful idea.

There's a great school on Long Island I dropped into where a bunch of NYPD train- they had a d*mn car in the space, padded on the dangerous bits, for teaching both carjacking defensive scenarios and LEO skills for extracting people from vehicles.

There are a lot of different rings out there.

Andrew

I can't argue with you and I do see the usefulness of spending some time with this sort of training, especially if you are going to "specialize" in fighting in some sort of specific environment, from NYPD to cage fighters, etc. That being said, I think for most people its more productive and time-efficient ( big concern of mine) to focus on more generalized (basic fundamental skills) realistic training with the mindset of seizing any opportunity, environmental or otherwise. However, I do also see how occassionally varying the environment, setting, etc. during training can be useful.

[leejunfan]

Why am I ripping on you?

Because you go on an on about how your fighting looks like your training.

Then you make a big deal about seeing MY fighting clips, although I told you they look pretty like all other MMA fighting and training.

Then I show you the clips and guess what? Suddendly you are not a "competitive" fighter and there is no evidence of you even sparring, let alone fighting.

Quite hypocritcal, don't you think?

hey knifefighter...did I ever claim to presently be a competitive fighter? There is evidence of me light sparring.... you haven't seen it? I don't video tape myself training or sparring much but there is a clip out there. If you've seen my clips then you must have seen it.

yes... train how you fight... I agree... which is why we train hard at our school. Do I have video of our "fights"?.... no...... will I?.... I already said I'd pony them up when I do. I made a big deal about seeing your clips? WOW..... a person asks to see something and it's a big deal? You got to get out more man.

Like I said..... anyone who has seen me spar knows I don't "look" like a WCK guy. I actually took heat from few WCK people because I cross train. Do I care what they think?..... or you? nope.... not one bit.

You constantly make a big deal out of every thread and choose to rip on ANYONE who challenges your preaching in the slightest. But again I ask..... why are you here? Go post on an MMA forum.... you'll learn more. You're not going to change anyone here, you'd be more productive talking to a wall.

I don't hate ya man. I don't even dislike you. I just think you need to relax little. Good luck with this thread guys... in the words of sunfist "how can this thread not end badly?"

PS: Terrence... you're last post.... is pretty much how I feel. Maybe I came across wrong but... in a nutshell you nailed it. Thanks.

[AndrewS]

That being said, I think for most people its more productive and time-efficient ( big concern of mine) to focus on more generalized (basic fundamental skills) realistic training with the mindset of seizing any opportunity, environmental or otherwise. However, I do also see how occassionally varying the environment, setting, etc. during training can be useful.

A thought-

from a motor learning perspective, training a skill to be used under unstable conditions is best achieved under unstable conditions (i.e just doing reps is of limited utility).

I do a lot drilling on controlling range and moving into an advantageous position- what I call stalking drills- working on what in boxing is called cutting off the ring (and escaping someone trying to do that to me)- setting up my entry.

I find that my stick work has contributed significantly to developing this (as a have a number of other folks)- working a variation on said skill, but not exactly the same skill.

I wonder if regularly varying the environment (obstacles, etc) as part of this sort of training would provide a similar carryover (aside from real world self-defense considerations).


Just a thought.

Andrew

[t_niehoff]

And to piggy-back, it may also help us from the adaptation problem (your body getting too used to the same sort of stresses which slows growth) by doing the same sort of exercise (same skill set, for example) in a different way (changing the environment).

Thanks for getting me thinking.

[Liddel]

Ive rolled with a grappling friend trying to pick up tips etc for fighting on the ground - my experience is limited. Every time we were on hard wooden floors.

We were starting from our knees so for the sake of this discussion it was a little different than whats been said. No takedowns sweeps etc.

I could def see the bennifit of the hardwood floors, training part on the hardwood and having mats for other training senarios seemed like a logical idea.

The hardwood floor would certainly harden your body after a while of exposure, more so than training on mats all the time. But so would playing Rugby

Even to a grappling laymen its easy to see that training on concrete would have its disadvantages in terms of training variety, what you can and cant train for without hurtin yourself or others

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Now I'm not saying go train on concrete every single day. That's like telling someone to get into a street fight everyday to REALLY train realistically. I'm saying give some thought to the protection the mat gives and ask yourself..... what will that do to me on concrete." (leejunfan/Anthony)


***PERFECT, Anthony...and I got your point about CRAPLERS long before you had to explain it...as well as getting the fact that the guy's head was probably only an inch or two off the ground (before you were trolled...eh...I mean...asked...to explain it). Been there, done that myself once, actually.

But slightly different situation: Real fight...it went to the ground (on concrete)...I was full mounted on his back...punching him in the back of the head...and therefore his face was being mashed into the concrete as well as taking punches to the back of the head.

After about 3-4 shots and he had had enough...and asked out, aka...submission.

Good posts, Anthony - and good thread.

[AndrewS]

Terence,

you're welcome, consider it payback for the 'running at the guy with an air shield' punch test of yours which I use on occasion. Please let me know how playing with the idea works for you- it's a hypothesis, so any data is appreciated (but it has the smell of one of those potential 'keepers').

Andrew

P.S. I'm on the run today, but I'd like to start a 'teaching/learning' thread at some point getting into overall approaches, tips, and tricks to learning.

[stricker]

training to use the cage (what to do when your up against it, when to move towards it, when to move away from it) is part of mma-specific training that could really pay off in a real life situation.

i know a lot of wing chun people do the whole slippers on a smooth wooden floor thing, maybe good for training certain things but i bet it would pay off to train different surfaces sometimes, get on an uneven surface in regular shoes, maybe litter some bags etc around then get some real leg sensitivity going

i think for groundfighting or any sort of work involving takedowns you really need mats, you just cant get the same mental intent as in a real fight if its just another day at training with your partners. the padding means you can concentrate on learning... doing it without mats would be cool, once youve got some basic skills, but even then like tniehoff says its about balancing your time. learn from experiences on concrete then take that into your regular training on the mat...

[anerlich]

What sweep from the ground would end the fight?

I could see some of the sweeps with opponent standing and driven backwards (standing hook and reap sweeps per Machado terminology) resulting in a heavy impact to the back of the head and possible KO if he didn't keep his chin tucked. Not something you'd want to rely on.

I practice falling, or "ground engagement", on hard surfaces sometimes, just to keep myself honest. Concrete is IMHO a unnecessarily risky proposition because of the abrasion/infection factor. I have no interest in doing more than the occasional bit of groundfighting on hard ground as I have a minor deformity in one of my lumbar vertabrae which makes it stick out more than normal, and I'll be bruising the sucker or worse just about every session.

You train on mats rather than hard concrete for the same reason you spar with gloves and other protective gear - you can get the mileage up and avoid the injuries which interrupt your training. I've heard some people say if you get hit in the head regularly it stops hurting so bad, and that may be, but I've been concussed enough times not to want to experiment further. You can't toughen your brain.

If you want true realism, train in an alley with garbage, broken bottles, used syringes, oil patches, and the like, preferably one with frequent traffic just to keep you on your toes. Good luck with getting insurance for your club.

If you get in a real fight, you should expect to be injured. It doesn't follow that getting injured regularly is necessarily so you know what it's REALLY going to be like. Most of us "soft trainers" have accumulated enough injuries as it is.

The benefits of the "realistic" approach have to outweigh the associated risks. A highly dubious proposition here IMO.