Ground fighting

[Knifefighter]

I understand that injuries can and do occur in wing chun, but if it happends on a 'regualr' basis, I would question my training methods. After all, most people learn a self defence system to proctect oneself...not to inflict pain and damage to oneself. Maybe thats what you call 'upside down' wing chun? Saves the thug doing the work.

Most people who are training hard and realistically will have small injuries as a regular part of training. More serious injuries occur less frequently, but are also occasionally part of training. It’s the only way to get to a high level.

If your instructor is leading you to believe otherwise, he is either clueless or a charlatan.

As I have said to Anerlick, you are most welcome to your method. But now people know the 'effectiveness' and efficiency of your method, I think most will leave you to it.

Only the fantasy, pretend theoretical fighters will do that. Anyone who trains/competes against other skilled, resisting opponents quickly learn they have no other choice if they wish to become highly skilled at fighting.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Terence,

You can do the "I'll argue my points no matter what" lawyer routine all you want - but it doesn't change the fact that you're full of 5hit.

You made 4-5 posts on the thread leading up to the May, 2005 get-together wherein you were telling people ad nauseum how they were wasting their time with forms, chi sao, this, that....and how they would see something real from you...NO chi sao for Terrence....NO...he was goin to show everybody how in shape he was....how he was going to spar with realism and hard contact, etc.....


AND THEN YOU DIDN'T SHOW.


And in fact, OBVIOUSLY due to embarrassment - you disappeared COMPETELY from this forum for about 6 months....

and when you returned - you offered some lame excuse how you found something better to do that weekend.

What a load of crap.

The same crap that you're giving us now.

Regardless of how many times you tell me that YOU THINK I should go over to Renzo's...the fact still remains that you have NO IDEA how good I am - or how good my guys are. But if you insist on always talking so much 5hit - then you should be willing to come and find out.

Which you didn't do in Cleveland.

Lots of talk, Terence...but a poor track record. Typical lawyer bull5hit.

[t_niehoff]

Terence,

You can do the "I'll argue my points no matter what" lawyer routine all you want - but it doesn't change the fact that you're full of 5hit.

You made 4-5 posts on the thread leading up to the May, 2005 get-together wherein you were telling people ad nauseum how they were wasting their time with forms, chi sao, this, that....and how they would see something real from you...NO chi sao for Terrence....NO...he was goin to show everybody how in shape he was....how he was going to spar with realism and hard contact, etc.....


AND THEN YOU DIDN'T SHOW.

Yes, I was interested at first. And if you recall -- if not, go back and read the thread -- I told you that I think that a WCK-only sort of event is a waste of time, and I tried to talk you out of it; I wanted to include MMA/NHB fighters (some good fighters). You wanted to make it sort of a Friendship Gathering, where people could watch, play round with chi sao, spar a bit if they wanted to, etc. I went to one Friendship thingy already, and haven't wished to repeat the expereince. Your event lost my interest. So I went to NAGA Chicago instead.

If you're that interested in what I do or can do, feel free to visit me. I've never turned anyone away. All of Robert's serious guys, Alan, Dave, and I, do the same sorts of things, train along similar lines. Dave has trained with me. Scott Baker, the WT guy who fought in UFC 2, came here to train with me. If you want to know about my WCK skills, ask them -- they've both fought NHB and can tell you.

You keep wanting to make these thhings personal. I'm not going to play those silly games. If you don't think I have any skills, I don't care. These things we're talkinga bout don't depend upon my skill. As I have repeatedly said, don't take my word for it -- go ask really good fighters (and I don't include myself in that category) or even better, look at what really good fighters are doing to become good. Because if we want to be better, that's how we have to do it too.

Your problem is you can't argue with that premise, and you can't refute it with evidence, so you try to make it personal -- don't listen to him because he is a sh!t. When people resort to this sort of thing, they have essentailly condeded the argument.

Regardless of how many times you tell me that YOU THINK I should go over to Renzo's...the fact still remains that you have NO IDEA how good I am - or how good my guys are. But if you insist on always talking so much 5hit - then you should be willing to come and find out.

Which you didn't do in Cleveland.

Lots of talk, Terence...but a poor track record. Typical lawyer bull5hit.

I have already said that I have no idea how good you or your guys are. All I have said, is that one major reason MMA/NHB fighters get so good is that they seek out the best people they can find and train with them. And that if we are interested in increasing our performance, we should do that too. Does Renzo's and Matt's have top-notch fighers? Sure. I don't think you would disagree. Are you saying that you and your guys wouldn't benefit from training with them?

[Ultimatewingchun]

I'm not saying that you don't have skills...I have to assume that by now you do.

What I am saying is that you're waaaay over the top....precisely because it's YOU who is constantly making things personal around here...by repeating ad nauseum that if people don't train exactly the way you do (although who knows for sure what that really means ?)...

then they personally....suck.

This is your message, Terence....and it permeates every post you make.

You try to discredit people who don't do exactly what you (say) you do.

And that's bull5hit.

And the fact that it's done as often as it is can only mean one thing: you have a vested interest in trying to prop yourself up by attempting to make others appear small.

It's the classic pseudo-superiority complex that masks unbearable feelings of inferiority.

See a shrink.

[Knifefighter]

And that's bull5hit.

I think it is spelled bull3hit.

And the fact that it's done as often as it is can only mean one thing: you have a vested interest in trying to prop yourself up by attempting to make others appear small.

Vested interest?

What... does he have a fighting WC school he is trying to convert all the theoreticians into joining so they can learn to fight?

Or does he bill by the hour for coming here and debating?

Or is he going to sue them for not training correctly?

t's the classic pseudo-superiority complex that masks unbearable feelings of inferiority.

Maybe he just likes to argue and debate.
He is an attorney for chrissakes.

[chisauking]

Well, he (Terrence) may like to argue, but from his own admissions, 2 things are beyond dispute:

1) His defination of the word fight isn't in the conventional sense. What he really means is to 'roll' with other BJJs. Why I don't know, because this is a wing chun forum.

2) His method of fight, fight, fight -- which he really means spar, spar, spar(specifically in BJJ rolling) isn't nearly as effective or effcient as he would like you to think, and certainly no better than the 'theoretical nonfighters' he so much likes to gload. This FACT is borne by his own admission that he 'routinely' loses -- even adgainst females.

If you would like to present me factual edvidence to prove the contrary, you are more than welcome to do so...

Until then I feel there's no further need to say any more to a closet bjjer, whose only motive in joining wing chun forums is to tell every one that they are doing it wrong.

[AndrewS]

CSK,

I have a little sense of what Terence is talking about.

Let me know when you'll be at Gary's next; I can show you.

Ask Ernie.

To a number of other folks who've chimed in on training with the best-

You're making it sound like the only way to get skill is to train with the top people at an elite gym. True, if your goal is to be among said elite. A number of good competitors on the national stage in a variety of combat sports have been largely self-taught; training hard with a good group of partners and learning to learn on their own. To make it to the next level they went to train with the best, but they got better than anyone in this discussion with hard work and a good peer group. The Inoues, the Shark Tank, Rich Franklin, and Cro-Cop all built their base without coming from elite gyms. They worked hard and built skills superior to many people coming out of much more priviliged training backgrounds. For that matter, Alexyev and Paul Anderson were essentially self-coached.

'Working with the best' can definitely get you good fast; so can just working.

Andrew

P.S. Ed Yuen posted a great study off a soccer coaching site a while back that showed that people visually learn skills equally well from poor and elite examples. Something to think about.

[chisauking]

Let me thank you in advance, AndrewS

[drleungjohn]

Nice to see you in these parts-wrt Terence,he has been in WCK a long time-I think his honesty tells a lot more then what it looks like-and his cross training to make his skills better-and his experiences,win-lose-draw-he shares to hopefully spark others to examine their game-by looking into the grapple/bjj world-or at least the individual's own WCK system and training--


But Terence doesn't need me to talk for him-just my pennies worth

For myself-I regularly look at my skills,my level etc and ask myself what am I lacking-and how can I fix it,improve on it etc-

Then I work it out with my students first,then fellow friends in other systems at my level or higher and see-

But-In my persoanl experiences,I look at all of it thru a WCK eye and have yet to feel the need to look outside of it's concepts and theories for the answers-but that's just me-

[splinter]

His method of fight, fight, fight -- which he really means spar, spar, spar(specifically in BJJ rolling) isn't nearly as effective or effcient as he would like you to think, and certainly no better than the 'theoretical nonfighters' he so much likes to gload. This FACT is borne by his own admission that he 'routinely' loses -- even adgainst females.

You're absolutely rigth. I mean, the fact that he's losing to girls in BJJ obviously means that he's not training correctly.

The right way to go is to avoid fighting or hard sparring all together. I mean, I've never fought, and I'm totally undefeated, so obviously my wing chun training is working perfectly.

[anerlich]

o ahead, I'm not stopping you. Let me know if you need any help in this approach, I would gladly give you a helping 'hand'

I have good instructors and training partners right now, so I'm not looking for assistance from clueless fools at present.

If my situation changes, you'll be first on my list. Your qualifications are obvious.

[t_niehoff]

'Working with the best' can definitely get you good fast; so can just working.

P.S. Ed Yuen posted a great study off a soccer coaching site a while back that showed that people visually learn skills equally well from poor and elite examples. Something to think about.

They've done a number of studies on the effectiveness of learning by modeling (seeing someone perform the target skill) on motor skill development, and the findings are interesting: "Novice athletes are likely to get little insight from watching experts, other than perhaps gaining some basic information about how to perform the task . . . . we get the greatest learning benefit from seeing the expert make mistakes . . . the real issue may not be the skill level of the model but from the type of information being demonstrated -- errors or imperfect templates of the action. . . . It is likely we learn more from mistakes than we do correct performances." Schmidt, Motor Control and Learning, p. 292

This is different from practice with/against experts (not just watching them). The advantages to training with experts are many -- including better feedback (you know when you make a mistake), the need to push yourself, etc.

[Knifefighter]

2) His method of fight, fight, fight -- which he really means spar, spar, spar(specifically in BJJ rolling) isn't nearly as effective or effcient as he would like you to think, and certainly no better than the 'theoretical nonfighters' he so much likes to gload. This FACT is borne by his own admission that he 'routinely' loses -- even adgainst females.

Unless one is the best person, by far, in whatever group he train with, one will routinely lose. If this is not happening, then training is much less effective than it could be.

I believe he was talking about when he first started. He was tapped by a female blue belt during a grappling session. Same thing would more than likely happen to you if you don't have any ground experience.

[Knifefighter]

To a number of other folks who've chimed in on training with the best-

You're making it sound like the only way to get skill is to train with the top people at an elite gym.

One doesn't necessarily need to train with the best... just people who are better than oneself.

[forever young]

just seen this,
http://www.filecabi.net/video/felony-mma.html
might be old news i dunno, but it goes back to the "concrete wrasslin" argument. Im not by the way saying any or either of these guys CAN fight but there is definately some interesting points, check 3.10mins for a classic quote.... and chisauking i gotta say wow, way to post some ignorance there my friend.