Clip from Alan Orr DVD's series

[Alan Orr]

Hi Guys

This is a clip from my first series:


http://youtube.com/watch?v=xIJQrbD7jL8


I hope you enjoy it.

My best

Alan www.alanorr.com

[Matrix]

Hi Alan,

I enjoyed the clip. Thanks for posting it.

[t_niehoff]

I just had the opportunity to watch Alan's DVD set on wing chun for NHB (which he was very gracious and kind enough to send me), and to see both him and one of his students (Aaron) fight

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WxESVvbz1...related&search

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jKpF-jeK0...related&search

and what I really liked was that he fought using his WCK just like he trained it (and presented it on the DVDs). For me, this is the test: can you make work what you are training to do? All too often I see people "practicing" things that I know from experience just won't work. Or, they say to do one thing and practice doing that thing, but when they fight, you see them move differently and do different things (which means their training was at the very least nonproductive, and perhaps counter-productive).

While their are lots of books and videos on WCK out there, 98% of them are worthless IMO -- the "good ones" merely repeat the same old tired theoretical nonsense and the "bad ones" profess to teach silly things like WCK anti-grappling or WCK groundfighting. They all talk about how WCK should be done from the perspective of someone who has never done it and can't do it. That's a guaranteed formula for failure. This is why I highly recommend Alan's DVDs: whether you agree with him or not, you can't argue with success. So for anyone interested in making their WCK functional, I suggest you put aside your preconceptions of how you "believe" or have been told WCK should be and watch these DVDs. They are good stuff.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Terence,


Alan's stuff is nice. They are good at what they are doing.

Can you please show me where is the Wing Chun in any of those fighting clips? Tell me the time frame so I can pause/rewind in slo-mo to get a clearer picture of what you are describing as the Wing Chun elements?

All is see is MMA/Boxing.

[t_niehoff]

Hey Terence,


Alan's stuff is nice. They are good at what they are doing.

Can you please show me where is the Wing Chun in any of those fighting clips? Tell me the time frame so I can pause/rewind in slo-mo to get a clearer picture of what you are describing as the Wing Chun elements?

All is see is MMA/Boxing.

I've got a better idea. Why don't you put up some clip of you fighting a decent MMA fighter and show us how it looks any different.

[Jim Roselando]

T,


Your funny! I still remember you being the one who has refused to put yourself on the net even when I asked everyone to send in anything! Anything! I wasn't as shy as you.

What Alan is doing is good! Nobody is saying it isnt! Those fights are representative of any MMA event.

All I want to know is which aspects are you specifically linking to his WCK?


TIA,

[t_niehoff]

T,

Your funny! I still remember you being the one who has refused to put yourself on the net even when I asked everyone to send in anything! Anything! I wasn't as shy as you.

Ahh, the sense of entitlement.

My point is there is no sense discussing it with you until you've fought with your WCK against some good people. You approach WCK and what you believe it should be from a theoretical nonfighters perspective. So whatever I point out, you'll just believe is "wrong" since it won't match your theory.

What Alan is doing is good! Nobody is saying it isnt! Those fights are representative of any MMA event.

All I want to know is which aspects are you specifically linking to his WCK?


TIA,

Yes, they are representative of any MMA event since when you fight, no matter what your style or method, it will look like MMA. That is the nature of fighting. Only people who don't fight with good people believe differently (mainly because they either want to believe that or they've been told that by someone who never fought). But I don't care who it is, if you put them in with a good fighter or someone who can press them to 100%, it will look like MMA.

Alan and his guys are using WCK except for the ground. It's their expression of it. Not all BJJ fighters, boxers, etc. look alike -- there is much room for individual and stylistic variation. Buy the DVDs if you want the "elements" explained. Alan goes into it in length.

[Jim Roselando]

Typical T responce.

Show me One WCK tool being used and i'll go along with you?

One sun punch (or one hand) representative of all the training and countless hours and hours of drilling in these WCK "concepts"? Usually when I ask for this people come up with; You cant tell, its all in the Body.

I agree with you. The way you train is the way you fight. Train like mma fight like mma. I like MMA. Yes T, more than you probally realize. It is what it is tho!

Just an opinion and nothing against MMA or their (alan & his pupil) fine performance in competition. I just thought since you were so positive on this being WCK in action I would have recieved a clearer picture of what you see.


Back to lurk mode! I'll leave you with the last word after this

[Knifefighter]

One sun punch (or one hand) representative of all the training and countless hours and hours of drilling in these WCK "concepts"? Usually when I ask for this people come up with; You cant tell, its all in the Body.

That's why MMA/boxing/MT training is the most efficient training for most people. Same training/same fighting. One doesn't have to "look" to find almost every single aspect of the training showing up in fighting... it is already obvious.

The percentage of a style's techinques from training that show up in fighting is a good measure of how efficient the training of any style is.


Terrence:
What percentage of the their training shows up in fighting?
And how is their training different from standard MMA training?
How different is it from the training that YM was teaching?

[stricker]

good clips props for puttin up !!

i STILL need to find the time to go train with alan, but i been kinda busy with my own stuff ...

their (alan and aaron from the clips) striking style i dont think resembles "classical wing chun", but it definitely has its own flavour not typical mma or boxing.

from what i understand alans focus in wing chun is the body mechanics, so the tools (tan bon fook) might not be there but its definintely his systems flavour.

i wonder a little bit about how he put his hip into the punches, think thats different to the chum kiu shift ive seen alan teach on his video #1...

also i really dont get the no head shots with bare shins rules (aarons fight). shin-on-shin HURTS, on a level with head shots i'd have thought.

[Knifefighter]

Notice how those fights are no head shots. Might it be that one could make WC work in an environment in which only body shots are allowed?

Back in the days when I was still trying to make my WC work in fighting, I also fought in a few of those types of competitions. My conclusion was that I could make it work in that environment, but as soon as head shots were allowed, it became next to impossible for me to make it to work with any effectiveness.

[stricker]

Notice how those fights are no head shots. Might it be that one could make WC work in an environment in which only body shots are allowed?

Back in the days when I was still trying to make my WC work in fighting, I also fought in a few of those types of competitions. My conclusion was that I could make it work in that environment, but as soon as head shots were allowed, it became next to impossible for me to make it to work with any effectiveness.

i'd REALLY like to see one of their fights with head shots. not how well they do or anything but i think thats when you'll really see what their particular style looks like in action.

[IRONMONK]

well sometimes boxing can look like WC

[t_niehoff]

Typical T responce.

Show me One WCK tool being used and i'll go along with you?

It's all WCK -- you just don't see it. You have preconceived idea of what WCK will look like in application. Buy the DVD.

One sun punch (or one hand) representative of all the training and countless hours and hours of drilling in these WCK "concepts"? Usually when I ask for this people come up with; You cant tell, its all in the Body.

For me "concepts" are at best temporary guides for beginners and at worst complete BS. WCK exists only in the application.

I agree with you. The way you train is the way you fight. Train like mma fight like mma. I like MMA. Yes T, more than you probally realize. It is what it is tho!

No, that's not what I said. What I said is that anyone, including you, the Fungs, anyone, that really fights full out will look like MMA because that is the nature of fighting -- it will look like some sort of boxing, some sort of wrestling and some sort of BJJ. You can practice all kinds of Monty Python silly walks but when you run full out, everyone regardless of their style or art will move pretty much the same way because they have to. So the way you train is not *necessarily* the way you fight -- train silly walks and that won't work in running. And, you'll be wasting your time. But, if a significant part of your training is running, then you are training the way you will run. Most WCK is silly walk stuff; they haven't functionalized it. They see someone running and say "where is the silly walk" or "show me one silly walk tool" -- they just don't get it.

That's why I said to tape yourself fighting someone good, someone that can really press you -- you'll look like you're doing MMA too. If you try the silly walk stuff, you'll get creamed.

[t_niehoff]

That's why MMA/boxing/MT training is the most efficient training for most people. Same training/same fighting. One doesn't have to "look" to find almost every single aspect of the training showing up in fighting... it is already obvious.

I agree with you that this is a serious flaw in the TCMA training paradigm. We perform forms and drills that aren't realisitic and don't represent realistic application and then expect to get good results in realistic situations!

The percentage of a style's techinques from training that show up in fighting is a good measure of how efficient the training of any style is.

Spot on! Everyone should take this to heart, and go down to a local MMA gym and fight -- that will tell them not only how effective their training is but also how efficient it is.

Terrence:
What percentage of the their training shows up in fighting?
And how is their training different from standard MMA training?
How different is it from the training that YM was teaching?

I don't want to speak for Alan. And I can say that our group here does some things differently. However, from looking at his DVDs and comparing what he says to do with what he does, it seems very consistent to me.

FWIW, in my view, the stuff from Yip -- the forms, drills, chi sao, etc. are not training (as they are not realistic) but are for teaching/learning only (although to quibble, you can correctly say that learning is a part of training). I think that in the old days, the training was the fighting. That's why I think that people who have only learned the forms and drills (no matter how "well" they can perform them) have only a superficial grasp of WCK.