Clip from Alan Orr DVD's series

[Alan Orr]

Hi Guys

Again thanks for your support.


In terns of my views on comps, read my new interview:

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/articl...nterview2.html


In terms of fight records:

Amateur NHB 23 wins 15 draws 8 losses

2 wins where from body blows. which show our power.

Semi Pro and Pro 3 wins 1 loss ( also 1 loss to injury)

Full contact kick boxing 3 wins plus Gold medal

Amateur NHB light weight national Belt

Middle weight runner up.

Boxing 1 win TKO.



We have 2 pro fights coming up and 4-6 amateurs as well.

All good fun. Read the article. You will see we fight for our development. The group of individuals who fight represents the small percentage of students that I teach who would like to complete with the skills I have passed on to them. Completing is not a required part of my school training, but some students do want to push themselves in this matter. Therefore, it is my role to make sure they have the best training and coaching available. The main goals of the TEAM are to learn, have fun and improve individually and as a TEAM

My best

Alan

www.alanorr.com

[Gooseman]

I have total respect and admiration for the Alan Orr fight team.
No real criticism can be levied against their actions, basically because they are doin' it! It being fighting to win!
Alas, I do believe that Alan's opponent was a trifle novice up against a long road Master, not a wholly accurate display of forces, wills and skills.
Apart from that, good luck and keep on truckin'.
Steve Gooseman

[Jim Roselando]

Hey guys,



This whole discussion is important. See, some people see wing chun and some people see other stuff. It is IMPOSSIBLE for Alan's body to not be different or use different attributes. This comes from all the other training he does. The Wing Chun structure and strength from its training are all inside the body and no doubt it would feel different from the average guy. So, as Alan said:

But it is not western boxing its Chinese Boxing, Elbow position, first angle, stance, methods of power are all different!

This makes sense. But, its still mainly rooted in Chinese boxing/MMA with the concepts more than Wing Chun. Here is why I say that!

Wing Chun is designed to develop reflexes or reactions without thinking. For me, this means, when or if you get one of those reference points (or not) during exchange the body will not think but react with what has been trained to the Natural. When these things happen during the fight footages the body power might be wck concepts but the Natural reactions were mainly Chinese Boxing. Jab, Cross, Hook, Neck Crank etc..

I dont believe, contrary to opinion, that you need to look the same as you train in realistic situation/sparring. This is a huge mistake but what is important would be what is coming out Naturally in heated training. Alan's performance shows that in heated situation his Chinese boxing stuff is natural for him with the extra beef from his WCK/other training backing it up. Alan is comfortable, relaxed and strong. Great job Alan!


Dale/Knifefighter wrote:

The percentage of a style's techinques from training that show up in fighting is a good measure of how efficient the training of any style is.

What percentage of the their training shows up in fighting?
And how is their training different from standard MMA training?


This is exactly what I am talking about. Sure the body and angles maybe rooted in wck or other training but what % of the art being applied is Chinese Boxing or WCK. Once again, this has nothing against their excellent performances but more to do with what Dale also mentions.


Great results in the fights guys! Congrats!

[t_niehoff]

Wing Chun is designed to develop reflexes or reactions without thinking. For me, this means, when or if you get one of those reference points (or not) during exchange the body will not think but react with what has been trained to the Natural. When these things happen during the fight footages the body power might be wck concepts but the Natural reactions were mainly Chinese Boxing. Jab, Cross, Hook, Neck Crank etc..

No, this is a mistaken view IME. If a person develops "reflexes or reactions without thinking" you'll be easily defeated by a good fighter because you will be predictable (every X will get Y response). Fighting, regardless of the method, is an open skill - and open skills have a significant cognitive element. FWIW, I think this is one of the big mistakes many people make: not treating WCK as an open skill athletic activity.

I dont believe, contrary to opinion, that you need to look the same as you train in realistic situation/sparring. This is a huge mistake but what is important would be what is coming out Naturally in heated training.

You may not "believe" but that is true, and it has been proved by motor science researchers (for the past 60 years "the specificity principle" has been accepted) and corroborated/supported by all combative athletes with significant skills.

Alan's performance shows that in heated situation his Chinese boxing stuff is natural for him with the extra beef from his WCK/other training backing it up. Alan is comfortable, relaxed and strong. Great job Alan!

I nice back-hand compliment (essentially "good fight, poor WCK"). Here's the problem: you have an idea of how you think WCK should work or should look in fighting/application. That's your theory. And that's all it is since you've never seen anyone who could do it against anyone with decent fighting skills. But it persists nonetheless. You see Alan fight and contrast what he did with your theory, and since he didn't meet your "standard" by your theory, he had poor WCK.

Another big mistake people make is not grasping that their "understanding" of WCK (or any fighting method, and fighting in general) is largely dependent upon and limited by their personal performance level (skill). In other words, people who can't *do* it (in fighting), don't understand it. People with low level skill, have low level understanding. And so on. So unless you can do it, and at a higher skill level than Alan (for example), you -- and this goes for everyone -- simply can't *know* what is or is not good WCK.

What Alan's clip represents is his expression of WCK at a certain skill level. That's it.

[Jim Roselando]

Terence,


I played a lot of sports growing up. I know the relationship between development and usage In a Game sort of scenerio. Wing Chun is absolutely no different from any other physical activity. For some strange reason you seem to believe that if people trained something for 10 years that there is eventually a point where its just so nautral you cant tell what it is! I cant go along with this. I have never seen someone train Basketball for 10 years and then come out looking like a Hockey player.

The feels/principles that are first Programed and then De-Programed are just that. A stage. But!!! If you have a Direct relationship with what you practice to your Body then it has to be there or its just not Natural (or as natural as whatever else you are practicing). The whole Non-Experience in rough and tough stuff shows this not to be true is laughable. Knifefighter/Dale had a similar opinion. Atleast thats what I got out of it.

If two people get to the Clinch sort of range and for some moment the bodies connect at some point then this is the Exact Point In Time where what you train to be natural should come out. The pressure on your body will bring you into Natural reaction state from your training. Very Simple.

None of this was a Poke at anyone. Sorry! Stay on topic. I have been around and have respect for this stufff as its effective. As I have mentioned in the discussion. Alan is solid and relaxed in there. Doesn't take a genious to see that. Hence why I compliment him and his boys.

[azwingchun]

Here's the problem: you have an idea of how you think WCK should work or should look in fighting/application. That's your theory. And that's all it is since you've never seen anyone who could do it against anyone with decent fighting skills. But it persists nonetheless. You see Alan fight and contrast what he did with your theory, and since he didn't meet your "standard" by your theory, he had poor WCK.

Wow....I actually agree with Terence!

I think this is one of the best and most important things mentioned on this board in awhile. Stepping aside from the discussion of actual fighting for a moment, I see this happen in Wing Chun quite often. How many times have I heard someone say that a certain individual or school does chi sau differently from the next and are told that it bad Wing Chun. All because it appears slightly different from their own theories, maybe they feel it isn't tight enough, too stiff, too relaxed, not enough forward pressure, etc. These statements are based upon one's own ideas, which each group feel are their "standard" ways and anything else is just wrong or not (Good)Wing Chun.

Now back to fighting, these same things are said about Alan Orr and his group. People don't seem to see the Wing Chun because of appearance (IMHO) though I can see the concepts within their methods. Of course it may not appear to be Wing Chun in appearance, but to me, Wing Chun comes from the inside.....not the shape or look or the methods used (or easily seen from the outside).

In short, I feel great Wing Chun isn't seen as much as it is felt!

[Jim Roselando]

Hey John,


I agree and disagree with you which means I also agree and disagree with Terence. Once WCK is cultivated you are certainly not a slave to its so-called look. No Doubt! We agree!

***

Boxing has: Jab, Cross, Hook, Uppercut, etc..

Wing Chun has: Chung Choi, Gwa Choi, Biu Choi etc..

If you train WCK for 10 years then some of your daily training and regular tools should show up somewhere under pressure! If it doesn't, then its not natural for you or as natural as whatever else you are doing. Its really just that simple.

***

This reminds me of the old Karate debate. Wing Chunners forever complain that their art is better than Karate because we have more of a relationship in what we do to how we use it naturally. Why train like Karate if we fight like Kickboxers was the common slogan wasn't it?

I'm still waiting for Dale to chime in with his thoughts. For some strange reason I think he might actually agree with me for once hahaha

Gotta run!

[azwingchun]

My question to you is this......how do you use your Wing Chun upper cuts, hooking punch etc. under pressure differenly than another style that uses those same techniques? Might sound like a silly question.....though an honest question.

I had two different teachers in my past martial arts training (one a Wing Chun teacher and the other a Tai Chi teacher) tell me that after the first 3-4 punches your system/style goes out the window. This really disturbed me as a student....I at the time had a slight drop in repsect for those teachers (sadly to say). Though today after rethinking those statements, I am not to sure that at that time I truly understood what they meant. Did they mean that the traditional (dare I say robotic) look of the system goes out the window or did they mean you just lose your system completely?!?!?!?

And yes, that use to disturb me as well......I use to watch late night kickboxing fights on TV during the 80's. You couldn't tell a Kenpo guy from a Tae Kwon Do guy. As a kid I didn't really understand this......was it just that the basics were what won the fight....as to the stylized signatures?!?!?!?!

[Knifefighter]

TFor some strange reason you seem to believe that if people trained something for 10 years that there is eventually a point where its just so nautral you cant tell what it is! I cant go along with this. I have never seen someone train Basketball for 10 years and then come out looking like a Hockey player.

Actually, I think I agree with both you and T in certain respects. I think you are right in that your fighting will look like your training and you will be able to differentiate it, in terms of "styles".

On the other hand, I believe that, at the top levels (assuming the environments are similar), most people's fighting will look pretty much the same. This is because there is probably only one (with some slight variations) best way to do a particular activity. This is exactly why basketball does not look like hockey, but most basketball players play pretty similar games (with some slight to moderate variations) to each other- same with MMA... I believe there is definitely a "best" way to fight in an MMA environment.

Additionally, the "best" way is always dependent on the environment... this is one of the reasons for the rise of striking in MMA. No longer can a grappler keep an opponent down on the ground for 30, 60, or 90 minutes until his opponent makes a mistake. In today's MMA environment, the striker only has to survive on the ground until the ref stands the fighters up or stops the fight due to cuts... neither of which happened in earlier NHB days.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey John,


My question to you is this......how do you use your Wing Chun upper cuts, hooking punch etc. under pressure differenly than another style that uses those same techniques? Might sound like a silly question.....though an honest question.

I cant answer the above properly for what I write below this paragraph as the main reason. In heated situation we are more concerned with safe body positioning!!! This allows us to move in and out depending on the exchange. I can hear my sifu repeating the mantra:

Jim, protect yourself at all times with good positioning!

The funny thing is I agree about not being a slave to the training shapes. The shape of the body need not look like the cultivational part of the training but we certainly use the tools we develop. We are mainly a Fist Boxing art after all.

Uppercut/Hook? Honestly! Almost Never! The Upper-Cut type hit only happen when your real close and it stuffs in from under. Hook punch is not something we train. A lot of people use this Hook concept as a take down but still not commonly practiced in our training.

I had two different teachers in my past martial arts training (one a Wing Chun teacher and the other a Tai Chi teacher) tell me that after the first 3-4 punches your system/style goes out the window. This really disturbed me as a student....I at the time had a slight drop in repsect for those teachers (sadly to say). Though today after rethinking those statements, I am not to sure that at that time I truly understood what they meant. Did they mean that the traditional (dare I say robotic) look of the system goes out the window or did they mean you just lose your system completely?!?!?!?

I would imagine they are talking about bringing yourself to the natural stages with what you do. Its almost impossible to hit someone with numerous shots. Even if you really do land a couple of good shots your lucky if you get 2 (heavy blows) landed max. All the compond so-called traps will not be there. One or two shots max if we are lucky in heated situation. Still this is different from what i am talking about.

And yes, that use to disturb me as well......I use to watch late night kickboxing fights on TV during the 80's. You couldn't tell a Kenpo guy from a Tae Kwon Do guy. As a kid I didn't really understand this......was it just that the basics were what won the fight....as to the stylized signatures?!?!?!?!



Thanks for the input.

[azwingchun]

Uppercut/Hook? Honestly! Almost Never!

I see for the most part what you are saying......especially the protecting yourself part. Though the above quote is where we differ. They are a part of the Wing Chun boxing and should be trained just as much as any IMO.

[anerlich]

What's wrong with Monty Python.

Just make sure you don't model yourself on the Black Knight.

Good clip. Amazing how long some of these arguments can go on, ain't it?

[stricker]

I had two different teachers in my past martial arts training (one a Wing Chun teacher and the other a Tai Chi teacher) tell me that after the first 3-4 punches your system/style goes out the window. This really disturbed me as a student....I at the time had a slight drop in repsect for those teachers (sadly to say). Though today after rethinking those statements, I am not to sure that at that time I truly understood what they meant. Did they mean that the traditional (dare I say robotic) look of the system goes out the window or did they mean you just lose your system completely?!?!?!?

And yes, that use to disturb me as well......I use to watch late night kickboxing fights on TV during the 80's. You couldn't tell a Kenpo guy from a Tae Kwon Do guy. As a kid I didn't really understand this......was it just that the basics were what won the fight....as to the stylized signatures?!?!?!?!

the thing about it all going out the window is very important to address again whatever art. now i dont know the answers but i think this is where the 'intensity-specific' principle comes in that tniehoff talked about, and also dealing with the bodies natural reaction to attack etc

also one thing to bear in mind is that when a lot of wing chun people say "they lost their system and reverted to just boxing or just kickboxing" theyre wrong. go watch some novice/amateur fights and tell me if you see proper stance, guard, jab, cross, hook form etc. these arts (boxing/thai etc) have a structure and form etc and correct form is HARD to keep up under pressure. i saw one or two novice/amateur thai fights at the weekend and boy past the 1st round they were barely recognisable as muay thai fighters

also, about the stylized signatures well one thing is every person moves differently anyway, their body languague if you will. the second thing is the stylized signature often is there but you have to look carefully to see it. its usually pretty easy to tell someones background (boxing/thai/kickboxing/karate etc) even thought the techniques may be similar and it all looks like fighting. its just in action everythings a bit 'blurred' or not as stylized. eg i can see alans teams clips and see the wing chun roots are there in how they move even though it doesnt obviously look wing chun (like the forms/drills etc). actually, i also saw a few little things that made me think hmm not so wing chun but were not talking details so thats another story

[stricker]

Just make sure you don't model yourself on the Black Knight.

Good clip. Amazing how long some of these arguments can go on, ain't it?

its just a flesh wound

[Matrix]

Amazing how long some of these arguments can go on, ain't it?

Is this the 5 minute arguement or the full half hour?