choy lay fut and stance training

[oasis]

question about stance drills and flexibility. obviously, the more you drill stances the stronger your legs get and the more endurance you build. for example, in clf many of us have ng lun ma to drill repetitively. however, i believe there is a limit to how much your stances can improve by just doing the stance training alone without doing specific exercises that improve flexibility, especially of the accessory muscles used. for example, one of jet li's contemporaries said that the secret to his strong empty stance was working on the achilles tendon. he said many neglect exercises that enhance the flexibility of the achilles. so my question is what exercises have you found beneficial for improving one's Dui Ma (empty stance) and Nau Ma/Tau Ma (cross legged stance)?

[Shaolindynasty]

one of jet li's contemporaries said that the secret to his strong empty stance was working on the achilles tendon. he said many neglect exercises that enhance the flexibility of the achilles.

There are stylistic differences to consider first. Contemporary wushu stances are considerably lower than that of choy lay fut. While it might look impressive to have an extremely low dui ma, it's not practical. In our practice dui ma is mostly used as a retreating step. By going into an extremely low position you lose mobility.

With that said, you should be doing all kinds of stretching. Not just for the lower body but also for the shoulders and waist.

so my question is what exercises have you found beneficial for improving one's Dui Ma (empty stance) and Nau Ma/Tau Ma (cross legged stance)?

The key mostly lies in the correct structure combined with doing repetitive drills. A problem allot of new people have is rushing through Ng Lun Ma like it's a fighting form. Try counting to 10 on each posture while keeping the correct structure next time you do it. Next saturday I'll go over some drills with you guys in class.

[Ben Gash]

Ding Ji Ma stretches your achilles tendon if you do it right. You don't really need that great a degree of flexibility to any of the stances except maybe Sieh Ma.

[CLFNole]

In addition to what everyone else has posted on this subject, you might try mixing up how you practice ng lun ma. When I teach it I explain how I try it two different ways:

1) Practice it holding each stance from 10 seconds to 30 seconds per stance. This method will build-up endurance and leg strength.

2) Practice it moving faster, not typical form speed, but without holding and really focusing on the turning of the waist. Sharp waist turning motions.

Personally, I prefer to practice Method #2 as CLF should have a lively horse rather than a "dead" horse where you just hold positions for long periods of time, but I do mix in #1 for a good ole leg burn.

[Jeong]

I definitely want to echo CLFNole here. In CLF there are two important aspects to stance training; the quality of each stance and the abililty to transition between them. In CLF the power is very stance driven, so the second is very important.

Shaolindynasty hit this exactly; if you try to make your stances look too impressive they're generally not practical because you sacrifice the ability to use your stances.

Sometimes what I do for this is I'll step through a form but leave out the hand techniques, just do the stances & transitions. That really helps you focus on driving with the waist.

[Yen-Wang-Yeh]

One of the many reasons as to why forms were created and today remain an essential tool for learning, maintaining, and performing.

Standard practise drills specific to stance are the most basic and essential tool any MAs employ.

And of course, due diligence. The single most important ingredient for success. The constant and earnest effort to accomplish what is undertaken; persistent exertion of body or mind.

Yen-Wang-Yeh

[oasis]

good comments everyone, thanks..

i agree that we dont want our stances to be too low as in modern wushu. the other day i was studying in the bookstore and taking a break at the martial arts section, and i was skimming through a book on exercise for functional fitness in various sports. it discussed different flexibility and strength drills that help with hip flexibility, hip mobility, etc. it made me wonder if i was missing something similar. when i do get a chance to practice at home, i usually try to practice forms both slowly and quickly, but i have to admit, i dont really practice flexibility at home (compared to at the kwoon) as I should. Thus, was curious about whether people feel doing the stances (properly) when at home is enough to build the required endurance and flexibility, or are there specific stretches that help more than others?

Shaolindynasty, looking forward to it and indeed, i do have to practice ng lun ma more with the ten second intervals

[T. Cunningham]

Holding the horses is good, but once you've built a good foundation, the horses need to become more lively to train mobility, quickness, and fluidity. We train Ng Lung Ma first holding the postures to build the legs and to open the hips. We later move faster when practicing the form. As we progress higher in the primary level, we see quicker footwork with Siu Mui Fa and other forms. At the top of the primary level, we work Sei Moon Kiu, Jao Sang Ma to continue training the quick footwork and develop more precision in stepping.

As was mentioned by others, the stances themselves build both strength and flexibility when trained properly. Sounds like you're already training the horses well. As to hip flexibility and mobility, remember to train the tan ma/toe ma, da bok/sei bok when practicing Ng Lung Ma. This will train flexibility in the stance in addition to building a strong waist.

Todd

[twangy]

you hit the nail on the head. power-generation wise, the stances are nothing but a pivot point for the waist. there's not much power in the stances alone, but they do act as a foundation for power to be generated from the waist.

mobility wise, they are a way to control distance and vertical level (ducking etc.)

from our school website www.choyleefut.fi (free translation by me)

"Before forms training the student practises long hand techniques and low stances (dai jong ma). In the beginning, the student always starts with low and open, which strengthen the student's legs. When he progresses, he starts training the higher stances (go jong ma) and short hand techniques. Even though Choy Lee Fut is regarded as an art of long hand techniques, its true power is in the latter short techniques. However, because only few are patient enough to reach this level, a picture has formed that depicts Choy Lee Fut only as an art with long techniques."

[T. Cunningham]

Exactly. I like to refer to the stances as a weapons delivery platform.

As to the short power/techniques, I agree. Tun Yan Jong for example.

[twangy]

Do you mean this?

http://choyleefut.fi/dynamic/1/71.html

(see picture, the text is unfortunately in Finnish)

[T. Cunningham]

Yes, that's the dummy. There is also a two man set.

[deeperthantao]

my suggestion,

Practice lots and lots of slow side kicks. This will help build gung and will strengthen your hips, both are important for stances. As an added bonus, you will have faster kicks as well