??? about Patriotism in the U.S.A

[Water Dragon]

this thread has 'twenty page flame war' written all over it.

[Mr Punch]

Hey shortlee, welcome to the board.

Unfortunately, you're gonna have to sharpen up your threadgame. It was a nice try, but addressing a whole country when the citizens of which mostly pride themselves on individuality and individual freedoms was a bit crass.

If you reverse the question, and write one to all the British on the board, you'll be getting dozens of opposing answers too.

Perhaps your next thread should be something like "ATTN Americans: what do you see as American values/qualities?" and encourage people to express themselves freely rather than couch the question in your own presumption.

Hey special-ed (I assume that's 'education'?) welcome to the board, you obnoxious ****. I shall look forward to more of your irrelevant, pointlessly rude b****.

Showing patriotism and loyalty is brainwashing? Yeah, right pal...This isn't North Korea you're talking about. I'd want my children to say the pledge of allegiance at school every day as a reminder that they live in a free country and should be thankful for that, as well as loyal to it.

So, if as free-thinking individuals they decided that the the US's standards of freedom didn't quite come up to scratch with theirs (children can be very idealistic and very demanding you know), and that they didn't want to stand up and say the pledge of allegiance, you'd respect their rights to individual freedom in refusing?

Goood, glad to hear it.

Death penalty conflicting with martial arts ethic? What kind of dumb pills are you taking? Foreign policy? American views on martial ethics and these topics? Dude, shut up. Train. Leave your pansy political views out of it.

He said his martial ethic. In some countries people have different martial ethics, as an expression of their rights to individual freedom, and can express those without fear of reprisal.

For example, some people might find this to be a laughable wannabe expression:

Martial arts are for warriors, not creampuffs

I trust you are writing this from Iraq, warrior-boy? Or at least from the set of 1200 (300 II: the Sequel ) where 600 women and children live ****ty lives without their fathers in a fascistic narcissistic fantasy state, and 600 hundred slaves bury a couple of thousand dead Spartans and half a million rotting Persians?

I think you should send shortlee the rest of your dumb pills... they seem more effective than his.

[xcakid]

I believe there is a saying, and will answer most of you question. It goes:

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will die defending your right to say it"

As for the death penalty. That is a personal choice. We have the death penalty but not every state uses it. In CA, they have people on deathrow that would die of old age before they see their sentence carried out. The subjects of....err I mean.... the citizens(I use that term lightly since they let their govt do the thinking for them) end up paying nearly $40K annually to house these a-holes. And it would only take them about $5K of off them. Here in TX, we have the only electric chair with a service contract. If you kill someone in TX, we will kill you back. CA, 8%+ state income tax. TX, no state income tax. Doesn't conflict with my belief at all, cause I have not embraced Buddhism nor do I believe in being non-violent. I take martial art for its health benefits. Being able to fight is just gravy. So really no conflict.

You're question regarding the flag: How bout asking yourself why the UK thinks so highly of an in-bred family and call them royalty?

USA - we rebelled against authority if that is not individualism, I don't know what is.
UK - people are called "subjects" for hundreds of years. Royals herded you guys around for hundreds of years. Much like they are doing now and telling you it for your own good. Filiming your every move. Telling you what you can and cannot have. What is bad and good for you. (Sadly this is catching as it is starting to happen here now.)

[specialed]

For example, some people might find this to be a laughable wannabe expression:I trust you are writing this from Iraq, warrior-boy? Or at least from the set of 1200 (300 II: the Sequel ) where 600 women and children live ****ty lives without their fathers in a fascistic narcissistic fantasy state, and 600 hundred slaves bury a couple of thousand dead Spartans and half a million rotting Persians?

I think you should send shortlee the rest of your dumb pills... they seem more effective than his.

Too late. After reading your post its apparent that you've intecepted them and swallowed the lot.

[SanHeChuan]

Dude! I want a trolling alter ego! That would be sweet!

Wait what was the question? What does Patriotism have to do with Kung fu?

You Know in my kung fu class we have to recite the school creed, kind of a Chin woo thing. Dear god lets not pledge allegiance to the our country and school that would be... What?

But I also think citizenship should be earned through service (not military), rather than something your born into. Maybe people would be more appreciative or at least willing to do something about their problems other than complain. I know people who couldn't pass the citizenship test the make immigrants take.

LOOK! I have the greatest country and the best style so sit down and shut up J/K

[Mr Punch]

USA - we rebelled against authority if that is not individualism, I don't know what is...UK - people are called "subjects" for hundreds of years. Royals herded you guys around for hundreds of years. Much like they are doing now and telling you it for your own good. Filiming your every move. Telling you what you can and cannot have. What is bad and good for you. (Sadly this is catching as it is starting to happen here now.)

See, that's typical of the negative BS you find all over the internet these days.

We're supposed to be allies, and God knows we're like as two peas in a pod in some ways.

And yet here, on a thread that should have simply been a good opportunity for Americans to say what they think about being American and about American values, is some ill-informed (and frankly that makes it racist) crap slagging off the UK. Now, I know we have Golden Arsehat on our side (God bless im)... but please.

I didn't agree with Blair joining Bush by lying to our people. This is not political, it's moral. I appreciate the need of the govt to hide their intentions sometimes. Now, this is on point: why? Because, although I felt that way, I still supported Blair and by reluctant extension Bush, in Iraq. I someone accuses me of being a 'liberal' or a 'socialist' like that's a bad thing, fine. I've used my freedom of speech (which I would fight for) to defend my position and someone is using theirs to attack my position. Bring it on!

Regardless of the fact that the people of both countries were lied to, and that the situation in Iraq was largely of our making in the first place, I will support the UK. Why? Well using xca's cynical logic, this is because I'm a blind sheep? Some (US definition) liberal's accusation - a blind patriot? I'm in lose-lose position! No, it's because I'm English. Simple as that.

But xcakid's cynical bull**** negativism is just going to turn this thread into another: US kicked your asses, then saved your asses, and all the ills of the world are from European imperialism crap. I'm sick of it.

I don't have enough time to take every dumb kid's statements on the net seriously (and hell, I wouldn't have enough time to look at 20 words of Golden Arhat's but he's English, so I'll let him off! )

Let's have a quick look:

USA - we rebelled against authority if that is not individualism, I don't know what is...

1) The first poster is obviously ignorant. So it's time to politely inform him, rather than us vs them bs

2) Nobody said the US wasn't individualistic.

3) If you are talking about championing individuality maybe you are sacrificing democracy?

4) If you think you have the monopoly of popular uprisings you know NOTHING.

A selection

Levellers
more
more
more
more
more
more

One of the roots of your Bill of Rights and Constitution

and more recent

If you rest on your laurels in the fight for freedom, and just believe your country is free, whilst stifling political dissent/discussion... you deserve everything you get. By the same token going to fight wars protecting spurious business interests for contrived reasons in the name of 'fighting for your freedom' while letting individual freedoms slide at home (Patriot Act and Cindy Sheehan anyone?) is failing to uphold the very freedoms you love and take for granted.

I'm not saying that's happening, or getting into the ins and outs of the Patriot Act or whatnot (but it does seem they are anti-American to me!) and I'm not US-bashing... I'm saying, while there is no debate these things are more likely to happen.

UK - people are called "subjects" for hundreds of years.

So what? In effect it means nothing more than citizen, in that a civilised member of a civil city-based society has certain responsibilities that go with freedoms.

Royals herded you guys around for hundreds of years.

What exactly do you mean by this? Perhaps you'd like to read up about how much executive, legislative or adminstrative power the Royals actually have? (None)

Much like they are doing now and telling you it for your own good.

Is this 'they' the royals, the govt (ie. the Blair and Bush coalition ), the BBC, the Severn Trent Water Company? Sounds a bit like a conspiracy theory to me. And again I point to political debate being alive and well in the UK and the UK media... when was the last time a real democractic movement (eg populist politics) got any unjust law changed in the US? And yes, the have been more peaceful lobbying examples, but I happen to like the rabble-rousing ones!

Telling it for your own good: again this sounds like the US, the UK or just about any govt 'democratic' or otherwise.

(Filiming your every move.

Again. So. What? If you're not doing anything wrong I don't see the problem, and the number of criems these cameras have prevented/helped solve justifies them to soem extent to me.

Telling you what you can and cannot have. What is bad and good for you. (Sadly this is catching as it is starting to happen here now.)

Now what the **** are you talking about? And are you saying the British govt started this trend? And when is advice (on nutrition etc) turned into 'orders'?

Like I said I have a couple of probs with the US, just as I do with the UK, but a bit less us vs them cyncism and ill-informed parrotted crap please.

[Mr Punch]

But I also think citizenship should be earned through service (not military), rather than something your born into. Maybe people would be more appreciative or at least willing to do something about their problems other than complain. I know people who couldn't pass the citizenship test the make immigrants take.

That7s a good point for the UK too.

LOOK! I have the greatest country and the best style so sit down and shut up J/K

OK... mine both suck!

[Mr Punch]

Too late. After reading your post its apparent that you've intecepted them and swallowed the lot.

Which particular point were you taking issue with, warrior-boy?

[The Xia]

this thread has 'twenty page flame war' written all over it.

Folks,
I think you'd be better off discussing Royal Dragon's women problems then dignifying this.

[SanHeChuan]

Speaking of mandatory service. I met this HOT, I mean I spotted her from across the mall HOT, Israeli chick in Virgina last year and she said something to the effect of, "Yeah, I had to do two years of mandatory military service, shoot AK's and sh!t." Not that is HOT! I had a thing for Jewish girls before but ****! That is HOT.

[shortlee]

Okay stuff the classics study this is being copied and pasted STRAIGHT INTO my psychology course work. only joking

I didnt expect such hostile approaches from some of you, but then again i am sorry for my naievaty, perhapes i should avoid threads like this

pangquan and Mr punch thankyou for your sensible comments that came acfcross as being more level headed

as for the rest of you (americas great). people////

'were not being brainwashed by our corrupt governemnt... honest'

did your agressive words not prove my point, dotn you feel youve had 'americas great' drummed into you enough by now.

I only make that statement because some of you seem so intent on insulting the UK

''martial arts for warriors'

my point about ethics and death sentence was the fact that if youd studied some of the moral ethics displayed by great patriots of the arts then youll find they were peaceful, caring and compassionate...

bodhidharma maybe... 18 lohan hands ring a bell anywhere.... sarcasm btw...

the death sentence goes against many martial arts techings of compassion and tolerance...



as for an earlier question as to what i think american values are so far Ive dtermined this.

'stuff everyone else were the best.. oh and were really free honest.... yes free'

except for the few of you which seem to manage decent answers to my question, the rest seemeed to take it as an insult.

and im sorry if i offeneded your rag worshipping ceremony, so ythe UK may be full of pushovers, but because were not blinded by patrotizm were able to have debates over EVERYTHING because everyones got a different opinion thats not mascaaded as patriotism



well thats about it really, ive been watching this thread grow and i thought its about time i got involved.. slaughter me for my comments i wouldnt expect any less

[golden arhat]

so why have a go at me then ? surely you wouldnt care or know what i was on about

and yeah how you decide i'm a pushover by not knowing me
and because i obviously have different beliefs is real mature of you

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi shortlee,

The problem here is the manner in which the topic was originally addressed. The issue of patriotism is not an American issue, it is a human issue. There are individuals in every country of the world who have patriotic feelings for their country. It is irrelevant whether the country devoted to is dominant or subordinate in power. Those of dominant power seek to maintain their dominance; those of subordinate power seek to achieve a position of dominance. This is a quality of humans that is reflected in goals of countries. As above, so below, but also as below, so above!

Patriotism is part of human psychology. It is the same quality that causes some to be devoted to their favorite football team, marital art style, ethical value, church of choice, employer, etc. It is a human quality to want to identify with something greater than ourselves. This is is a more productive manner in which to address the topic, not how, why or what motivates someone to be devoted to a SPECIFIC ideal. This is a DIRECT challenge to an individual’s subject of devotion. Hostile responses are just about begged for using this manner of addressing the topic. Most people will fiercely defend that which they are devoted too.

The question would have been better asked about the “human” quality of patriotism and not “American” patriotism in particular. Britain has had their time in history when they forced/influenced their values on other countries. Dominant countries always influence/impose their value system on the less powerful. It is not an American quality, it is a human quality. Many cultures have had their time in the sun. The Vikings invaded/influenced much of Europe, the Mongols Asia and eastern Europe, the Chinese Asia, the Greeks the near east and Asia, Egypt, north Africa and the near East, the Muslims Europe, Africa, the near east and Asia, etc. I think you get my point. America has their day in the sun now, but that too shall pass.

We should be careful when criticizing the patriotism/imperialism of any country because every country would do the same thing if they were a dominant power. There is no country that would not do it! This is because it is a human quality to do so. The question regarding whether it is a good or an evil is secondary to our acceptance of the reality of it. We cannot do anything about the reality of it; it is as old as power and politics. The good and bad of it will be determined by individual value systems and agreement will never be achieved!

[golden arhat]

You're question regarding the flag: How bout asking yourself why the UK thinks so highly of an in-bred family and call them royalty?

umm i dont

hell not alot of ppl do

[Mr Punch]

Sh!t, I was wrong.

Shortlee just posted this thread as a prelude to airing his cliched ill-thought out Yank-bashing before accusing others of not being level-headed. Those pesky kids.

Arhat, don't get me wrong, I love you mate, so untainted by common sense or insight, and yet so c0cksure. Sweet. English to a fault.

Quick question: do you really think Yank-bashing changes anything? GA, I know you do it just for fun ( )... but it's still a serious question.

Scott Brown, for once we seem to agree. I think we were wasting our time with serious answers though...

Apologies to all you Septics on the board. It appears your cynicism was well-founded.

I'm out of this heap o sh1t.