shaolin-do and video comparisons to non-sd version

[Judge Pen]

i've always enjoyed this guy's take on applications, as can be seen in his chen applications demo clip:

http://www.hsing-i.com/pics/index.html

he demonstrates thorough understanding and skill in my opinion

I agree. I found that guy early in my research into Hsing-Ie and was impressed.

[Leto]

I want to believe that "dragon heart" is the name of the "classical" form, and that the guy on the site has learned it from an independent source. The lyrics are pretty much in exactly the right order. If he's legit, how cool would that be?

from a youtube video of the form you mentioned : "Ahh it's the Jiang Rong Qiao long form excluuuuuuuusive. This form comes from the Zhang Zhao Dong branch of Ba Gua"...you think that's where our bagua style comes from? Zhang Zhao Dong branch?

http://www.jiangschool.com/ZhangZhao-Dong.htm

it looks likely, being a hsing i "flavored" bagua, the same as the "dragon heart" form is described on the hsing i.com site. SD seems to have more Hsing I than the other internal arts, maybe master Ie was also primarily a Hsing I man, supplemented with a little Bagua and Taiji.

[Leto]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl2mvyjHYS0

This is ours pretty much exactly. He does more cloud hands repetitions, his stepping and kicking is slightly different, and his fairy working shuttles is a little different. This must be one GM The picked up later, after he was in USA? Or someone taught it to him one of the times he visited home?

[Judge Pen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl2mvyjHYS0

This is ours pretty much exactly. He does more cloud hands repetitions, his stepping and kicking is slightly different, and his fairy working shuttles is a little different. This must be one GM The picked up later, after he was in USA? Or someone taught it to him one of the times he visited home?

Tai chi 37 is almost identical to our tai chi 64 (counting differences between postures and steps). My understanding is that the standard tia chi 24 is the one that was learned later. This form is the standardized wushu 24 and the most practiced tai chi form out there, so it was taught to us later so we would have this form in addition to our 64. At least to my understanding.

[Leto]

In the west we didn't have a 64, we called it yang style 37 posture. yes, the 24 posture combined style must definately have also been learned later, because it is a modern wushu invention. Of course, what is "later"? I guess Cheng Man Ching's short form could have been circulating around southeast asia by the late fifties or early sixties, when GM The was still a student of Master Ie...there is certainly a group of Cheng's style students in Indonesia, though how long they've been there and where exactly I don't know.

That leaves the 83 posture chen style form, which I never got a chance to see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1tQk920wFo part1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANuuF...elated&search= part2

does this one look familiar?

[Baqualin]

http://www.hsing-i.com/pa_kua/pbody.html

this isn't a video, but look at the form lyrics near the bottom of the page. Lung Hsin (Dragon Heart) Bagua form...the move names are very similar to Sd's, and the sections seem to be in the same order according to the walks (5th section spread wings, 7th section lion, 8th heavenly horse)

haven't been able to find any videos of a form by this name, though, wonder what it looks like.
Anyone else ever heard of the dragon heart bagua form?

The guy on the site sounds a little fishy from his bio. For all we know, the form he lists there could have been learned from SD and given a snazzy name.

That's Mike Patterson...he's the real deal. Our classical Pakua is also called the orginal form by some schools & is depicted in Jerry Allen Johnson's / Joseph Crandell's book Classical Pakua Chang Fighting Systems & Weapons, along with the Lineage....Chiang Jung-Ch'iao a student of Chang Chao-Tung who was a student of Tung Hai-Ch'uan...it's a very common form. It was the first Pakua form learned by GMS from GMIe....for insight to Chen 83 google George Xu
BQ

[Baqualin]

Tai chi 37 is almost identical to our tai chi 64 (counting differences between postures and steps). My understanding is that the standard tia chi 24 is the one that was learned later. This form is the standardized wushu 24 and the most practiced tai chi form out there, so it was taught to us later so we would have this form in addition to our 64. At least to my understanding.

You are correct on this JP....Tai Chi 64 was taught to us in the early 70's...I learned it in 75....forms like 24 & Fan he taught out in the early 90's both after trips home to Indonesia...one of GMIe's colleages was a Chen Master & won a large tournement in China with the Fan form....but GMIe had it all which was passed on to GMS ....he has picked up nothing outside of the original school in Indonesia. There's still tons (years) of material...Internal & external yet to come.
BQ

[Baqualin]

In the west we didn't have a 64, we called it yang style 37 posture. yes, the 24 posture combined style must definately have also been learned later, because it is a modern wushu invention. Of course, what is "later"? I guess Cheng Man Ching's short form could have been circulating around southeast asia by the late fifties or early sixties, when GM The was still a student of Master Ie...there is certainly a group of Cheng's style students in Indonesia, though how long they've been there and where exactly I don't know.

That leaves the 83 posture chen style form, which I never got a chance to see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1tQk920wFo part1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANuuF...elated&search= part2

does this one look familiar?

It's the same as our 83...just performed a little different...the George Xu version is a little closer.

[Judge Pen]

You are correct on this JP

First time for everything.

Tai Chi 64 was taught to us in the early 70's...I learned it in 75

Small world. That's the year I was born.

[Leto]

Is it possible that some material comes from lineages that have been in Indonesia little longer? I saw something called white crane silat, which comes from western java (the same area as Bandung), and claims descent from Chinese martial arts. Could our bird and crane forms be related to a silat style more directly than to Chinese/shaolin styles? I'm really curious about the white crane and bird forms, haven't seen anything like them anywhere else. The crane forms have some vague relation to Chinese crane styles I've seen, like one legged stance, and some whipping attacks. I have by no means seen every Chinese crane style or form, but I haven't seen any crane styles rolling or doing ground attacks like ours do. I know many styles may have ground work like this. What style do you think ours are related to? Or are they a GM Ie innovation, or an innovation of one of the other Indonesian teachers?

[Baqualin]

Is it possible that some material comes from lineages that have been in Indonesia little longer? I saw something called white crane silat, which comes from western java (the same area as Bandung), and claims descent from Chinese martial arts. Could our bird and crane forms be related to a silat style more directly than to Chinese/shaolin styles? I'm really curious about the white crane and bird forms, haven't seen anything like them anywhere else. The crane forms have some vague relation to Chinese crane styles I've seen, like one legged stance, and some whipping attacks. I have by no means seen every Chinese crane style or form, but I haven't seen any crane styles rolling or doing ground attacks like ours do. I know many styles may have ground work like this. What style do you think ours are related to? Or are they a GM Ie innovation, or an innovation of one of the other Indonesian teachers?

I do know one of GMIe's colleages was a white crane master and the teacher of GMS's brother Master Hiang. I also know that GMIe would only teach Chinese...so it's doubtful there's any Indonesian blending.

[Leto]

What type of white crane do you think he was a master of? southern or northern? Our forms don't look like tibetan crane...they don't really look like fujian crane or the crane of choy li fut and hung gar either. Are there any other, or were there ever any other crane forms taught? I've heard of white crane strikes out, taught in seminar form, it never came around when I was there. Are there any others?

Any more info on the birds? Were they taught by the same master who passed out the cranes? Is Tai Peng form related to them, or is that a whole different system, too? I know master Hiang teaches a whole 18 form set of tai peng forms, of which our three "shaolin" birds aren't a part.

Maybe SD birds and cranes are just their own style, and not closely related to anything that still exists in China. Maybe they were family styles, that were unique.

Kung Pao, if you're reading...you left SD to pursue a crane style, right? What style did you find? Does anything you do there resemble the SD forms you learned? have any rolling, drop kicks, or kicking from the ground?

I'm just rambling and speculating here. Anyone have any videos of crane or bird styles that look like ours?

[Baqualin]

What type of white crane do you think he was a master of? southern or northern? Our forms don't look like tibetan crane...they don't really look like fujian crane or the crane of choy li fut and hung gar either. Are there any other, or were there ever any other crane forms taught? I've heard of white crane strikes out, taught in seminar form, it never came around when I was there. Are there any others?

Any more info on the birds? Were they taught by the same master who passed out the cranes? Is Tai Peng form related to them, or is that a whole different system, too? I know master Hiang teaches a whole 18 form set of tai peng forms, of which our three "shaolin" birds aren't a part.

Maybe SD birds and cranes are just their own style, and not closely related to anything that still exists in China. Maybe they were family styles, that were unique.

Kung Pao, if you're reading...you left SD to pursue a crane style, right? What style did you find? Does anything you do there resemble the SD forms you learned? have any rolling, drop kicks, or kicking from the ground?

I'm just rambling and speculating here. Anyone have any videos of crane or bird styles that look like ours?

I only study SD internal, so I'm not really up on that part of our system other than some of the general history...Kung Pao, JP & others can help you there.

[Judge Pen]

What type of white crane do you think he was a master of? southern or northern? Our forms don't look like tibetan crane...they don't really look like fujian crane or the crane of choy li fut and hung gar either. Are there any other, or were there ever any other crane forms taught? I've heard of white crane strikes out, taught in seminar form, it never came around when I was there. Are there any others?

Any more info on the birds? Were they taught by the same master who passed out the cranes? Is Tai Peng form related to them, or is that a whole different system, too? I know master Hiang teaches a whole 18 form set of tai peng forms, of which our three "shaolin" birds aren't a part.

Maybe SD birds and cranes are just their own style, and not closely related to anything that still exists in China. Maybe they were family styles, that were unique.

Kung Pao, if you're reading...you left SD to pursue a crane style, right? What style did you find? Does anything you do there resemble the SD forms you learned? have any rolling, drop kicks, or kicking from the ground?

I'm just rambling and speculating here. Anyone have any videos of crane or bird styles that look like ours?

You're right, they don't resemble the examples of fujian white crane that I've seen (although SanNjie does and it is taught with the cranes). It also doesn't look like the Tibetian styles that I've seen. I've heard it said that they may be O-Mei, but I have no real evidence to that. I was curious to hear more about Kung Pao's experience too.

[Kung Pao]

I find resonance in the opening movements, strikes, and such (especially 2nd and 3rd crane), but not so much in the gorundwork and else. I practice the 3rd crane ground sweeps in my shaolin white crane with my teacher, but there aren't any in my forms. Mostly just front sweeps like in 3rd crane, without the punching. He insists there are lots of sweeps in crane, including the 3rd crane's ground sweeps, and we do practice them in crane drills. But they're missing from the forms. IT's why I always say SD's crane forms have lots of value.

. He practices a "family" style he got from his father, but it's not at all like SD's forms in flavor. It's Fujien crane in flavor. I know it's not Tibetan at all. What "family style" means is that it's modified shaolin crane according to his father's preference, without any posing. Unfortunately, modern shaolin (even the traditional shaolin taught nowadays) has lots of posing. Authentic or not, posing is for posers lol. But I'd say my white crane style still resembles modern-traditional crane than SD's when I do forms. Theres lots of qigong. They're much longer, and much more imitative of a crane, and teach shaking jin, hip movement, and the subtleties of vibration techniques. SD's forms (the 4 I have) don't really do that at all, but I see places where you could, and consequently, where I do practice that way. But in application, they're pound-for-pound the same as SD, and it's all about application, right? The closest thing to my direct movements are in 4 dorr break (is that right?). The elementary crane form. You konw the direction change movement, clear acrooss chest, switch to false leg with one hand clearing high over head in a beak?

I have that movement as two separate blocking techniques several times in my forms, but never together. More often than not, after one clear, it's a side hand strike combo, not two clears together. SD's cranes are more condensed technique with less performance art. It's why I think sD has much value.

Don't take some of these guys on here too seriously. or me, even.