Is Chi Sau for fighting?

[JPinAZ]

From another discussion, I came up with a question: Do you feel WC 'Chi Sau' is for fighting, or is it just a training drill?
If so why, or if not why?

Thanks,
Jonathan

(and if this has bean hashed out already, I appologize - I'm too lazy to search, and would like to start the discussion again anyway if it was..)

[Wu Wei Wu]

Sometimes it is easier to understand the categories into which a thing does not fall. Chi sao (sticking) in and of itself, is not fighting, neither is it for fighting. This brings us to a quandary. If it is neither of these then how does it fit into the fighting equation. Well, it can be said that Chi Sao is a tool designed to elicit and train one aspect of fighting; touch.

It creates habits whereby one reacts in the most appropriate way dependant upon the messages received through feeling the opponent’s body.

Does Chi Sao mimic a fight? No.
Does it help you as a fighter? Absolutely.

It creates the correct neuro-muscular conditioning that allows you to react (counter-attack) once you have bridged a connection with an opponent.

Examples of where it can help include clinch position to enable dirty boxing as well as the elbow to elbow range favoured by Wing Chun men.

Is it a just a drill. Yes and no.

It is trained in a drill like fashion, but one must view it as being organic or 'alive'.

[Knifefighter]

Here's one of the major drawbacks of chi sao:

You are generally hitting to the chest, and oftentimes, with less than full force. Chi sao becomes a game of tag with the "winner" getting the most hits to the chest. Many "chi sao experts" think that they are good at fighting because they get good at hitting people in the chest from chi sao.

The problem is that fighting is nothing like this. Many people who spend most of their time doing chi sao will be very surprised to learn that being able to hit someone for real and putting them down is very, very different than hitting someone in the chest when doing chi sao training.

Hitting someone, as well as getting hit, is completely differerent than hitting and getting hit in the chest during chi sao drills.

[samson818]

Chisao, as I understand it, is a training method to develop proper Wing Chun structure. It establishes a certain body linkage while working tactile sensitivity.

Do you need it? Not necessarily. But if trained properly, it can do wonders for your skill. Besides, most arts have some similar games, they just look different.

[Vajramusti]

Here's one of the major drawbacks of chi sao:

((An example of non wc trolling and misplaced pontification. Chi sao is not a mechanical drill with only hitting the chest. The forum posts are inundated
with a combination of repetitive posting and non wc trolling,...))

[Knifefighter]

Here's one of the major drawbacks of chi sao:

((An example of non wc trolling and misplaced pontification. Chi sao is not a mechanical drill with only hitting the chest. The forum posts are inundated
with a combination of repetitive posting and non wc trolling,...))

OK, I'm ready to be enlightened. Tell me how chi sao is different than I am pontificating about it.

Are you hitting full force to the face from chi sao?
Are you hitting full force to the abdominal area?
Are you only working chi sao as part of a full contact sparring session that starts from various ranges?
What am I missing?

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Knifefighter,

Here's one of the major drawbacks of chi sao:

You are generally hitting to the chest, and oftentimes, with less than full force. Chi sao becomes a game of tag with the "winner" getting the most hits to the chest. Many "chi sao experts" think that they are good at fighting because they get good at hitting people in the chest from chi sao.

The problem is that fighting is nothing like this. Many people who spend most of their time doing chi sao will be very surprised to learn that being able to hit someone for real and putting them down is very, very different than hitting someone in the chest when doing chi sao training.

Hitting someone, as well as getting hit, is completely differerent than hitting and getting hit in the chest during chi sao drills.

Your right if people are using chi sao to add up points for how many times you can hit your opponents chest then they are doing it wrong and not working on their wing chun.
It's really easy to hit someone in the chest plain and simple, I'm nobody special and I'm willing to bet that I could hit pretty much anyone in the chest doing chi sau.
So what, chi sao is about control and how to control your opponent with your footwork and structure. It's about shutting them down.

J

[Knifefighter]

So what, chi sao is about control and how to control your opponent with your footwork and structure. It's about shutting them down.

The same problem applies whether it is about hitting someone in the chest or thinking you can shut them down. Trying to shut someone down is much different in fighting when someone is throwing full force strikes to your face, head and body than it is when you are in an unrealistic "steering wheel" position.

The other problem with chi sao is that it gives people the false impression that they can, indeed, "shut someone down" and develops the theoretical non-fightering impression that you can expect to fight without ever being rocked. The fact is, in a real fight, both fighters will probably land shots.

Additionally, much of fighting ability is the ability to take decent shots. If the majority of one's time is spent taking hits to the chest, he will not develop the ability to take the shots that are an inevitable result of fighting.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Knifefighter,

The same problem applies whether it is about hitting someone in the chest or shutting them down. Shutting someone down is a misconception and is much different in fighting when someone is throwing full force strikes to your face, head and body than it is when you are in an unrealistic "steering wheel" position.

The other problem with chi sao is that it gives people the impression that they can, indeed, "shut someone down." The fact is, in a real fight, both fighters will probably land shots. Only theoretical non-fighters expect to fight without ever being rocked.

Additionally, much of fighting ability is the ability to take decent shots. If the majority of one's time is spent taking hits to the chest, he will not develop the ability to take the shots that are an inevitable result of fighting.

The thing as I see it, the shutting someone down isn't about controlling them to a point that they're tied up or can't move whithout large motions and because of my hyper sensitivity I can detect it and wack the guy.
Shutting someone down or contorlling them is a split second in reality. It's to get an advantage so I can wack him.

Now you mentioned fighting ability, chi sao can help with that but it's not a sparring session getting used to being hit needs to be explored in a different drill.

J

[t_niehoff]

Sometimes it is easier to understand the categories into which a thing does not fall. Chi sao (sticking) in and of itself, is not fighting, neither is it for fighting. This brings us to a quandary. If it is neither of these then how does it fit into the fighting equation. Well, it can be said that Chi Sao is a tool designed to elicit and train one aspect of fighting; touch.

No, it is a training platform that has degenerated into something else.

It creates habits whereby one reacts in the most appropriate way dependant upon the messages received through feeling the opponent’s body.

No, just the opposite -- it creates poor fighitng habits.

Does Chi Sao mimic a fight? No.
Does it help you as a fighter? Absolutely.

Yes in that it allows a trainee to learn skills in a somewhat dynamic environment.

It creates the correct neuro-muscular conditioning that allows you to react (counter-attack) once you have bridged a connection with an opponent.

No, it allows a trainee to practice skills while in contact in a nonfighting (unrealistic) environement. No conditioning takes place.

Examples of where it can help include clinch position to enable dirty boxing as well as the elbow to elbow range favoured by Wing Chun men.

Is it a just a drill. Yes and no.

It is trained in a drill like fashion, but one must view it as being organic or 'alive'.

As I said, it was a learning platform that has degenerated into something else. If I want to teach a trainee the "running" skill (let's say that when your hand is pressed downward, you circle to the outside and hit or cover or whatever), for instance, I'll first show it to him, then perhaps give him a fixed drill to practice it with -- let's say I punch, you tan, I press, you run and punch, I tan, you press, I run and punch, etc. Once they can perform that comfortably. I'll then put it into chi sao to make it more dynamic (some things I'll start teaching from chi sao). At that point, the trainee will have learned the skill but it will not be a fighting skill since it hasn't been trained in a realistic environment.

Why do you think so many people in WCK can do and look very good in chi sao but can't do any of those things in realistic fighting?

[Wayfaring]

From another discussion, I came up with a question: Do you feel WC 'Chi Sau' is for fighting, or is it just a training drill?
If so why, or if not why?

Thanks,
Jonathan

(and if this has bean hashed out already, I appologize - I'm too lazy to search, and would like to start the discussion again anyway if it was..)

Johnathan,

What's up? To answer this question, I will need to mimic Socrates.
If you and I are to discuss chi sau, we must first define our terms.

I've come to realize that when I say chi sau, it is not potato versus potaato to all those on internet forums I converse with. There is a HUGE difference in what 'chi sau' means as a drill or practice. It ranges from a static steering wheel type drill to a fair approximation of range and energy sparring. There also is a large difference in the way different families or lineages train it.

So I will add a corollary question to your initial one.

How do you define 'chi sau' ?

[JPinAZ]

Johnathan,

What's up? To answer this question, I will need to mimic Socrates.
If you and I are to discuss chi sau, we must first define our terms.

I've come to realize that when I say chi sau, it is not potato versus potaato to all those on internet forums I converse with. There is a HUGE difference in what 'chi sau' means as a drill or practice. It ranges from a static steering wheel type drill to a fair approximation of range and energy sparring. There also is a large difference in the way different families or lineages train it.

So I will add a corollary question to your initial one.

How do you define 'chi sau' ?

Hello,

I agree, chi sau most likely means different things to different people. I was going to wait a few pages before adding my few cents.

From what I've seen/read/etc Chi sau can be defined many different ways: as soley a sensitivity training 'drill'. Or it seems some view it later a more free-style light WC sparring with given rule-sets/constraints (retain certain facing, use certain tools, keeping contact, etc).
And some call it a game with no real-world application to 'real fighting'.

Ans it seems some feel what you learn in chi sau directly applys to fighting, and this I would agree with. From a certain point of view, the range recognition, facing, timing, sensitivity, structures, gate theories, etc can ALL be applied directly to fighting if you have a certain focus while 'chi sauing'
Depending on the POV chi sau is one, all or none of these things. 'Chi Sau' can be a general 'overall' term for bridging, or a more focused term for only one range/facing and a more limited toolset used in that bridging.

From what I understand of 'Chi Sau', over-all it is a training/bridging platfrom for building an awareness of how to bridge at different ranges and facings - with proper structures, gate theories, energies, etc. Depending on these ranges (hieght, width & depth) and facings, the contact could be wrist, arm, striking point, etc. The techniques are just a result of understanding the proper postion, range, etc (as listed above)
But the true focus as I understand it is in recongnising how to initially bridge, neutralize the bridge, then control/strike in a given timeframe.
This happens in 'fighting' all the time doesn't it?

I believe this awarness of timing, facing, space, structure, etc DIRECTLY translates into fighting. From my POV, chi sau IS fighting, if even for a breif second in time during the fight. Given a certain range/facing and understanding the correct reaction, chi sau can exist.
Can I recognize the attack? Can I neutralize the attack with the proper structure? Can I then set up a position of advantage that I can strike from safely? IMO, these are questions Chi Sau training can answer.
Also, from my POV, 'chi sau' isn't just a sensitivity training tool. Sensitivity is a result of proper chi sau training, but not it's main focus.

Ok, enough for now, gotta get back to work

Jonathan

[Nick Forrer]

FWIW

I generally only punch to the chest in chi sau (at least in the first instance)

because

a) It allows me to hit harder and stops me from flicking or pulling my punches or over extending to hit (which are bad habits which come from being a head hunter and which most wc people IME have from indulging in too much long range 'tag' chi sau)

b) It conditions my partner to take strikes without busting his face up (and vice versa)

c) A good body shot can be just as effective as a head shot and easier to get given that most people tend to protect their head more than their body.

Moreover a body shot can then be used to set up the head shot when he drops his hands to try and defend it...also...the head is more mobile than the torso and someone with good head movement in all directions can be hard to hit. It also leaves you more vulnerable to being taken down.

[IRONMONK]

In Brendle Ingle's boxing gym they do body sparring instead of head sparring

But anyway in chi sao dont tend to go to the face-i think it depends on who im training with .I go to the face/body in free-fighting.

[Edmund]

one of the times I've seen a cheek bone broken was from a palm.

In chi sao? From what distance was it thrown?

I think it's irrelevant what damage could be done. I don't see a lot of injuries occurring so I don't see much point dwelling on the issue but as I said you can take whatever precautions you need to make it safer.

I think the original question about the role of chi sao has been answered many times over by everyone. As has KF's assumptions about how everyone does it wrong.

Anyone who doesn't do WC really doesn't have a relevant opinion about it AFAIC.
It doesn't matter whether they do it or not. They aren't learning WC.