Is Chi Sau for fighting?

[JPinAZ]

From another discussion, I came up with a question: Do you feel WC 'Chi Sau' is for fighting, or is it just a training drill?
If so why, or if not why?

Thanks,
Jonathan

(and if this has bean hashed out already, I appologize - I'm too lazy to search, and would like to start the discussion again anyway if it was..)

[Wu Wei Wu]

Sometimes it is easier to understand the categories into which a thing does not fall. Chi sao (sticking) in and of itself, is not fighting, neither is it for fighting. This brings us to a quandary. If it is neither of these then how does it fit into the fighting equation. Well, it can be said that Chi Sao is a tool designed to elicit and train one aspect of fighting; touch.

It creates habits whereby one reacts in the most appropriate way dependant upon the messages received through feeling the opponent’s body.

Does Chi Sao mimic a fight? No.
Does it help you as a fighter? Absolutely.

It creates the correct neuro-muscular conditioning that allows you to react (counter-attack) once you have bridged a connection with an opponent.

Examples of where it can help include clinch position to enable dirty boxing as well as the elbow to elbow range favoured by Wing Chun men.

Is it a just a drill. Yes and no.

It is trained in a drill like fashion, but one must view it as being organic or 'alive'.

[Knifefighter]

Here's one of the major drawbacks of chi sao:

You are generally hitting to the chest, and oftentimes, with less than full force. Chi sao becomes a game of tag with the "winner" getting the most hits to the chest. Many "chi sao experts" think that they are good at fighting because they get good at hitting people in the chest from chi sao.

The problem is that fighting is nothing like this. Many people who spend most of their time doing chi sao will be very surprised to learn that being able to hit someone for real and putting them down is very, very different than hitting someone in the chest when doing chi sao training.

Hitting someone, as well as getting hit, is completely differerent than hitting and getting hit in the chest during chi sao drills.

[samson818]

Chisao, as I understand it, is a training method to develop proper Wing Chun structure. It establishes a certain body linkage while working tactile sensitivity.

Do you need it? Not necessarily. But if trained properly, it can do wonders for your skill. Besides, most arts have some similar games, they just look different.

[t_niehoff]

Sometimes it is easier to understand the categories into which a thing does not fall. Chi sao (sticking) in and of itself, is not fighting, neither is it for fighting. This brings us to a quandary. If it is neither of these then how does it fit into the fighting equation. Well, it can be said that Chi Sao is a tool designed to elicit and train one aspect of fighting; touch.

No, it is a training platform that has degenerated into something else.

It creates habits whereby one reacts in the most appropriate way dependant upon the messages received through feeling the opponent’s body.

No, just the opposite -- it creates poor fighitng habits.

Does Chi Sao mimic a fight? No.
Does it help you as a fighter? Absolutely.

Yes in that it allows a trainee to learn skills in a somewhat dynamic environment.

It creates the correct neuro-muscular conditioning that allows you to react (counter-attack) once you have bridged a connection with an opponent.

No, it allows a trainee to practice skills while in contact in a nonfighting (unrealistic) environement. No conditioning takes place.

Examples of where it can help include clinch position to enable dirty boxing as well as the elbow to elbow range favoured by Wing Chun men.

Is it a just a drill. Yes and no.

It is trained in a drill like fashion, but one must view it as being organic or 'alive'.

As I said, it was a learning platform that has degenerated into something else. If I want to teach a trainee the "running" skill (let's say that when your hand is pressed downward, you circle to the outside and hit or cover or whatever), for instance, I'll first show it to him, then perhaps give him a fixed drill to practice it with -- let's say I punch, you tan, I press, you run and punch, I tan, you press, I run and punch, etc. Once they can perform that comfortably. I'll then put it into chi sao to make it more dynamic (some things I'll start teaching from chi sao). At that point, the trainee will have learned the skill but it will not be a fighting skill since it hasn't been trained in a realistic environment.

Why do you think so many people in WCK can do and look very good in chi sao but can't do any of those things in realistic fighting?

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Knifefighter,

Here's one of the major drawbacks of chi sao:

You are generally hitting to the chest, and oftentimes, with less than full force. Chi sao becomes a game of tag with the "winner" getting the most hits to the chest. Many "chi sao experts" think that they are good at fighting because they get good at hitting people in the chest from chi sao.

The problem is that fighting is nothing like this. Many people who spend most of their time doing chi sao will be very surprised to learn that being able to hit someone for real and putting them down is very, very different than hitting someone in the chest when doing chi sao training.

Hitting someone, as well as getting hit, is completely differerent than hitting and getting hit in the chest during chi sao drills.

Your right if people are using chi sao to add up points for how many times you can hit your opponents chest then they are doing it wrong and not working on their wing chun.
It's really easy to hit someone in the chest plain and simple, I'm nobody special and I'm willing to bet that I could hit pretty much anyone in the chest doing chi sau.
So what, chi sao is about control and how to control your opponent with your footwork and structure. It's about shutting them down.

J

[Vajramusti]

Here's one of the major drawbacks of chi sao:

((An example of non wc trolling and misplaced pontification. Chi sao is not a mechanical drill with only hitting the chest. The forum posts are inundated
with a combination of repetitive posting and non wc trolling,...))

[Knifefighter]

Here's one of the major drawbacks of chi sao:

((An example of non wc trolling and misplaced pontification. Chi sao is not a mechanical drill with only hitting the chest. The forum posts are inundated
with a combination of repetitive posting and non wc trolling,...))

OK, I'm ready to be enlightened. Tell me how chi sao is different than I am pontificating about it.

Are you hitting full force to the face from chi sao?
Are you hitting full force to the abdominal area?
Are you only working chi sao as part of a full contact sparring session that starts from various ranges?
What am I missing?

[Knifefighter]

So what, chi sao is about control and how to control your opponent with your footwork and structure. It's about shutting them down.

The same problem applies whether it is about hitting someone in the chest or thinking you can shut them down. Trying to shut someone down is much different in fighting when someone is throwing full force strikes to your face, head and body than it is when you are in an unrealistic "steering wheel" position.

The other problem with chi sao is that it gives people the false impression that they can, indeed, "shut someone down" and develops the theoretical non-fightering impression that you can expect to fight without ever being rocked. The fact is, in a real fight, both fighters will probably land shots.

Additionally, much of fighting ability is the ability to take decent shots. If the majority of one's time is spent taking hits to the chest, he will not develop the ability to take the shots that are an inevitable result of fighting.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Knifefighter,

The same problem applies whether it is about hitting someone in the chest or shutting them down. Shutting someone down is a misconception and is much different in fighting when someone is throwing full force strikes to your face, head and body than it is when you are in an unrealistic "steering wheel" position.

The other problem with chi sao is that it gives people the impression that they can, indeed, "shut someone down." The fact is, in a real fight, both fighters will probably land shots. Only theoretical non-fighters expect to fight without ever being rocked.

Additionally, much of fighting ability is the ability to take decent shots. If the majority of one's time is spent taking hits to the chest, he will not develop the ability to take the shots that are an inevitable result of fighting.

The thing as I see it, the shutting someone down isn't about controlling them to a point that they're tied up or can't move whithout large motions and because of my hyper sensitivity I can detect it and wack the guy.
Shutting someone down or contorlling them is a split second in reality. It's to get an advantage so I can wack him.

Now you mentioned fighting ability, chi sao can help with that but it's not a sparring session getting used to being hit needs to be explored in a different drill.

J

[Knifefighter]

The thing as I see it, the shutting someone down isn't about controlling them to a point that they're tied up or can't move whithout large motions and because of my hyper sensitivity I can detect it and wack the guy.
J

Well, then you are back to the original problem. Whacking the guy in the chest from chi sao is completely different than rocking him in a real fighting situation.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Knifefighter,

Well, then you are back to the original problem. Whacking the guy in the chest from chi sao is completely different than rocking him in a real fighting situation.

Right absolutely. In Chi sao we're not hitting to the head, because if I can tie you up, I would be a jerk to launch a punch full force at your chest let alone your head because that's not what chi sao is for and that's the reason why you have people counting the number of times they're hitting someones chest

You can use sparring for what you mentioned.

J

[Edmund]

OK, I'm ready to be enlightened. Tell me how chi sao is different than I am pontificating about it.

Are you hitting full force to the face from chi sao?
Are you hitting full force to the abdominal area?
Are you only working chi sao as part of a full contact sparring session that starts from various ranges?
What am I missing?

I thought you said you've done WC before, KF?

You can hit full force if you like to anywhere you like. Nothing in particular is stopping you from doing so however without protective equipment someone will eventually get injured.

It's a vague ruleset so you can concentrate on a particular aspect of fighting, close-range in-contact fighting. And hopefully improve your skills at that aspect.

You're fully welcome to crush your training partners but don't expect more to come running over to train with you. All the applications and target areas are fine to practice but you have to use some common-sense when applying them on your partner. Gloves allow you to hit harder without injuring your partner. Headgear also.

For other ranges, you do other training exercises.

[Edmund]

Right absolutely. In Chi sao we're not hitting to the head.

Sure we are. Any target in the techniques of WC is a target in chi sao however we use some common-sense in *practicing* how to apply it. If you hit to the head, You can use your palm or hit them under the jaw or put headgear on.

You can practice the power on pads.

[Knifefighter]

I thought you said you've done WC before, KF?

You can hit full force if you like to anywhere you like. Nothing in particular is stopping you from doing so however without protective equipment someone will eventually get injured.

It's a vague ruleset so you can concentrate on a particular aspect of fighting, close-range in-contact fighting. And hopefully improve your skills at that aspect.

You're fully welcome to crush your training partners but don't expect more to come running over to train with you. All the applications and target areas are fine to practice but you have to use some common-sense when applying them on your partner. Gloves allow you to hit harder without injuring your partner. Headgear also.

For other ranges, you do other training exercises.

Many, if not most, people do chi sao with chest strikes only.

How do you do it?

Of course even if you do full force strikes with protective equipment, you are still starting from the unrealistic steering wheel position.