Page 18 of 18 FirstFirst ... 8161718
Results 256 to 264 of 264

Thread: Is Chi Sau for fighting?

  1. #256
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    New York-Long Island
    Posts
    214

    Isn't this nice-

    '"Victor-
    You are right. Instead of sticking to debating the issues of training, techniques, strategies, tactics and stylistic philosophies, I have have been guilty of making personal attacks."

    I am glad you got your apology Victor-unfortunately you had to back him into a corner to get it-

    As for me,I am going to take the "Single Leg Takedown Defense" as another jab at me and how this whole thing got started-'kill the messenger" as they say-because grappling is supreme!!!

    Because HE couldn't make WC,WORK,NOBODY CAN??

    He doesn't like to be called a liar-because THEN there is a problem?!?!

    I wonder if he's ever met a NY Sicilian? Yes,there is a problem.

    He doesn't know me,my skill,wasn't there and as you said-can't handle the concept of a WC guy beating out a grappler-whether he was good,bad or indifferent-so I either had to be lying about it,or made it up--and he says he is a NHB type of guy-but obviously he has a double standard when it comes to insults-

    The back channel is always the same about him, ."..but he brings a lot to the table,so we put up with him."

    Why?
    I'd still keep one hand up in Wu Sau, Victor- Sifu Cheung said once,"You can't change their opinion,...(I'll leave the second part out as to avoid another flame war)

  2. #257
    Ha! Ha! Ha!

    Of course I'll keep one hand up, John...I'm no dummy!

    But for now, I think the guy should get the benefit of the doubt.

    If Phil says that he's actually a nice guy in person - then that's something to consider...because Phil's no slouch either.

  3. #258
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    St. Louis, MO USA
    Posts
    5,316
    Quote Originally Posted by Liddel View Post
    Ok lets move foward with this cause im interested in your POV. (and im sick of the personal side bar in this thread)

    I want to use an action thats quite foreign to every day life, something someone is less likely or would almost never come up with in fighting if not taught.

    Lets use Bong Sao for instance -
    If not for the fact a VT learner is shown first how to hold the action and how to apply it, or put it out if you will in a form...

    How would you recommend one teach Bong Sao if not using a form platform to do so first ?
    First, find someone who can make their bong sao work reliably (high percentage of the time) in fighting (not in chis sao or in drills).

    Second, have them show you how they do that.

    Third, use that as a starting point for your own development.

  4. #259
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    St. Louis, MO USA
    Posts
    5,316
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    I specifically asked of YOUR experience, and you immediately tell me to go down and see someone elses.

    Again, I asked you of YOUR experience. If YOU are fighting. If these 'methods' you brag about work for YOU.
    Again, you point to something else. 'look over there' - I'm talking to YOU. Avoidance again. So I'll ask again, why should we listen to ANYTHING you say when you can't even prove these methods have worked for yourself?????

    I'm asking though, again, why SHOULD we listen to YOU?
    Can YOU do it? Does this method work for YOU?
    If I am going to have any real conversationg with you, and since you pawn yourself ff as having 'seen' what is the best mothod, have you proven it to yourself? Or are you just theorizing that what works for one gour works across the board... Let first establish that you even know what you're talking about first from your own experience first ok?

    There you go again - pointing the finger somewhere else when someone ask you about YOUR experience. Why should anyone listen to YOU?
    And as I keep saying, I am not asking anyone to listen to me as an authority or take what I say as true -- I'm saying rather to look at how the experts, the proven good fighters and fight trainers, actually train and listen to what they say about training. I don't want anyone to take the word or the word of anyone who isn't a proven fighter or fight traineir -- including me, including your sifu, including every grandmaster of WCK. Got it? We're all in the same boat. The only difference between me and the grandmaster is I'm saying to listen to the real, proven experts on how to train and they are saying they are the real experts (based on nothing but theory)!

    And don't talk about things you know nothing about. Now you're trying to drag my teacher into this again. Sorry, lets keep the subject on YOUR experience for a few more minutes - you've never once told us why YOU should be listened to. What are YOUR qualification?
    I am not saying that people should listen to me because I am so great -- I am saying listen to people who have proved they know what they are talking about, from their results. Do not listen to anyone who can't show their results, in fighting. Look to proven, world-class people.

    You want to know about my teacher's 'qualifications', well that's something you'd just have to 'experience'. Who the hell are you to question my teacher? You have no qualifications to talk about my teacher OR his skill. Are YOU ready to experience that for yourself?
    And I am sure you don't want me talking about YOUR teacher's skill, so let's leave it alone. It's safer that way. You should be very careful what your mouth gets you into!
    I ahve no idea who your teacher is or what his/her skill level is. Whoever he/she is, her/his skill will be directly related to the amount of quality sparring he/she has done. And this will be true for whatever style of martial art you practice.

    Great, thanks for your simple view.
    If you don't want to see/hear anything else involving WC, then I guess you won't be coming to this forum anymore, because I am guessing people here won't stop practicing or talking about these things any time soon.
    People can talk about whatever they like. They have forums for tai ji people, aikido people, etc. too. It depends on what your interest is.

    If all you care about is seeing results, and since you can't spar anyone else on a forum to see thier 'fighting skills' then you have no reason to be here then huh?
    All we can do on the internet is exchange ideas and perspectives. One pervasive perspective is the traditional MA perspective. I am presenting my views on a different perspective, but one equally pervasive in the functional martial arts. The best that can be accomplished is to get people thinking, examining, etc.

    My final questions: can YOU do it? Are YOU willing to 'show it'?? If not then you have nothing too I guess huh?
    So T, since you've foundseen all the answers, what is your 'knowledge and understanding at'? (what's YOUR skill level?)
    Or is it all theory on your end too? Sure sounds like it to me.
    I show my level everytime I train.

    BTW, here's an interesting article related to what I've been trying to talk about:

    http://judoinfo.com/pdf/drills.pdf

  5. #260
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,781
    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    I ahve no idea who your teacher is or what his/her skill level is. Whoever he/she is, her/his skill will be directly related to the amount of quality sparring he/she has done. And this will be true for whatever style of martial art you practice.
    From your post on another thread, and knowing you're not that dense, I am guessing you have a good idea who he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    I am not saying that people should listen to me because I am so great -- I am saying listen to people who have proved they know what they are talking about, from their results. Do not listen to anyone who can't show their results, in fighting. Look to proven, world-class people.
    Ok, then I'm done listening to you
    hopefully the chi sau discussion can still go on

  6. #261
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    St. Louis, MO USA
    Posts
    5,316
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    From your post on another thread, and knowing you're not that dense, I am guessing you have a good idea who he is.
    To be honest, I don't pay much attention since, with very few exceptions, it's all the same despite the lineage claims.

    Ok, then I'm done listening to you
    hopefully the chi sau discussion can still go on
    As I said, you should only be listening to those people who are proven experts in how to train fighters, people who have proved they aren't blind -- assuming, that is, your goal is to develop significant fighting skills.

  7. #262
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    NZ
    Posts
    1,093
    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    First, find someone who can make their bong sao work reliably (high percentage of the time) in fighting (not in chis sao or in drills).

    Second, have them show you how they do that.

    Third, use that as a starting point for your own development.
    Interesting reply - exactly what i expected.

    This is essentially the same way we learn at my school.
    Except instead of learning one action at a time we learn over 100, in a form ?

    I know your POV is that forms dont teach application but IME they teach basic application with good thoughrough teaching of the forms.

    It just so happens most teachers IME show you the forms, perhaps give you some theory if any and its up to the student to either use his mind or ask questions. If the student doesnt - he's effectively doing a dance....

    But if your teacher lets you know one by one how the actions in the forms relate to a move in Gor Sao, Lux Sao or full force sparring then its the same as your recommendation is it not ...?

    So my sifu teaching me the forms basically takes care of 2 and three, with further develpment happening in Gor Sao, lux Sao then full force sparring.

    It seems the issue you have with forms should be directed at the way teachers / coaches treat them in terms of a learning tool, not just to do away with forms all together ?

    To me, you have offered an alternative way, not one that proves that forms are redundant and "not necessary". Fair comment ?
    Training is the pursuit of perfection - Fighting is settling for results - ME

    Thats not VT

    "This may hurt a little but it's something you'll get used to"- TOOL

    "I think the discussion is not really developing how I thought it would " - LoneTiger108

    Its good to be the King - http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=2vqmgJIJM98

  8. #263
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Thunder Bay, Ontario
    Posts
    2,164
    Quote Originally Posted by t_niehoff View Post
    And as I keep saying, I am not asking anyone to listen to me as an authority or take what I say as true -- I'm saying rather to look at how the experts, the proven good fighters and fight trainers, actually train and listen to what they say about training. I don't want anyone to take the word or the word of anyone who isn't a proven fighter or fight traineir -- including me, including your sifu, including every grandmaster of WCK. Got it? We're all in the same boat. The only difference between me and the grandmaster is I'm saying to listen to the real, proven experts on how to train and they are saying they are the real experts (based on nothing but theory)!



    I am not saying that people should listen to me because I am so great -- I am saying listen to people who have proved they know what they are talking about, from their results. Do not listen to anyone who can't show their results, in fighting. Look to proven, world-class people.



    I ahve no idea who your teacher is or what his/her skill level is. Whoever he/she is, her/his skill will be directly related to the amount of quality sparring he/she has done. And this will be true for whatever style of martial art you practice.



    People can talk about whatever they like. They have forums for tai ji people, aikido people, etc. too. It depends on what your interest is.



    All we can do on the internet is exchange ideas and perspectives. One pervasive perspective is the traditional MA perspective. I am presenting my views on a different perspective, but one equally pervasive in the functional martial arts. The best that can be accomplished is to get people thinking, examining, etc.



    I show my level everytime I train.

    BTW, here's an interesting article related to what I've been trying to talk about:

    http://judoinfo.com/pdf/drills.pdf
    I think it is a good thing to look at the best of the best and take something from them. If you can train with them, that is even better. But it is also wise to realize that we are not the best of the best, simply for the fact that our lives are different from those top notch guys that are at the top. Most people at the top, in whatever endeavour have a different value system, and philosophy towards whatever it is they are striving for. Top level Martial Artists/ fighters are no different. Warriors are not made, they are born. Plain and simply some people will never be great great fighters, able to compete or perform against the top guys because they are not meant for that. I'm one of those guys. I love the WC/VT, but I know I am not a fighter. But I'm way more able to defend myself and fight than I was when I first started training, and this I believe is what is important.

    I believe the Modern Day training methods have lots to offer us, as well as sciencetific studies relating to human performance, but that doesn't mean we have to forget the past and what the previous generations have done before us. There is alot of wisdom there, but you can't get stuck in it and make it a fantasy.

    James

  9. #264
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    NZ
    Posts
    1,093
    Quote Originally Posted by sihing View Post
    I love the WC/VT, but I know I am not a fighter. But I'm way more able to defend myself and fight than I was when I first started training, and this I believe is what is important.
    James
    This is another important part when trying to measure results in fighting isnt it.
    Ive mentioned this lots of times in other discussions and i think its bang on James.

    The only way to measure the improvement of your ability is to get a 'reading' before and after you learn a 'skill'.

    Id say most people at the top level of MMA had the beginings of the skills they have now (mental and physical) just not as focused....

    I think VT can be a help to those with good skills and great for those with none at all.
    Training is the pursuit of perfection - Fighting is settling for results - ME

    Thats not VT

    "This may hurt a little but it's something you'll get used to"- TOOL

    "I think the discussion is not really developing how I thought it would " - LoneTiger108

    Its good to be the King - http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=2vqmgJIJM98

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •