Is Chi Sau for fighting?

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Edmund,

Sure we are. Any target in the techniques of WC is a target in chi sao however we use some common-sense in *practicing* how to apply it. If you hit to the head, You can use your palm or hit them under the jaw or put headgear on.

You can practice the power on pads.

I guess I'm not counting a technique to the head as a hit to the head. But you're right.

J

[Knifefighter]

I guess I'm not counting a technique to the head as a hit to the head. But you're right.

Huh?
How is that?
When is a hit to the head not a hit to the head?

[Jeff Bussey]

Huh?
How is that?
When is a hit to the head not a hit to the head?

It's pulled.

[Liddel]

For the sake of the conversation could we specify what each of us is meaning by Chi Sao ?

The term Chi Sao to me means to accept what comes and can apply to drills and fighting.

Chi Dan Sao - is NOT for fighting IMO. Its for muscle memory and sensitivity were i train, and its co operative.

The same could be said for Poon sao except it gets closer to its application in fighting with the addition of footwork.

Gor Sao however is un co operative and is performed with more and more power/force as you get better without 'attacking contact' which is left for sparring.

The Biggest thing i find in peoples mindset towards Chi sao related drills and its purpose in fighting is this...

They dont realise - In Chi Sao we block the action FIRST, in Fighting we catch the body FIRST.

If people dont understand the difference and treat it like real fighting then they certainly will develope bad habbits IME.

[Knifefighter]

It's pulled.

OK, then you were right in the first place. It is not a hit to the head.

[Knifefighter]

They dont realise - In Chi Sao we block the action FIRST, in Fighting we catch the body FIRST.

If people dont understand the difference and treat it like real fighting then they certainly will develope bad habbits IME.

Anytime you are training something that is different than what will happen in fighting, you are training bad habits.

[Liddel]

Anytime you are training something that is different than what will happen in fighting, you are training bad habits.

I agree to some extent. but at what cost...

With the majority of "drills" where i train the only thing thats different to real fighting is not connecting - mainly due to the fact we have bare hands and we couldnt train as long if we did connect. So to complement this training we hit pads and each other in sparring with gloves to avoid said problem.

You dont break limbs when at grappling training do you ?
But you know you can if the situation arises.

Every art has some aspect of what we're discussing here dont they ?
- Do Boxers train against leg and groin kicks ?
- Do Aikido guys retract punches, or leave them out to lock and manipulate suiting the style?
- Do Judo schools hit pads and punch each other (GNP) ?
- Does a TKD practitioner spar an opponent with more punches or kicks ?

Does any art specifically train in street clothes with shoes on.

What limits or boundaries are thier in your POV Dale ?

[Edmund]

Many, if not most, people do chi sao with chest strikes only.

How do you do it?

Of course even if you do full force strikes with protective equipment, you are still starting from the unrealistic steering wheel position.

Many, if not most, don't do chi sao with chest strikes only. I've been around a lot more WC schools than you, I'd say. Only schools descended from Yip Man and YKS tend to use the steering wheel position.

As I said before, you palm to the face or punch under the jaw.

You don't have to start from a steering wheel position either. (e.g. the Pan Nam style does not.) But the focus is on getting good at close range WC techniques so one guy running off like a chicken isn't very good for training that. Any close position is fine to start from.

Sparring would be used to practice longer ranges.

Why do you even care?

It is a training drill where you try to practice WC techniques. The same techniques that you can use in a fight. The mechanics of the "rules" are just ways to enable you to practice them. For different types of techniques you can modify the rules and no one could care less. There is no Bible for this stuff.

[Edmund]

It's pulled.

Why pull a palm to the head? It's not going to injure them. Just don't shove up on their nose and they'll be fine.

[Airdrawndagger]

The way ive been taught is that if you are doing offensive techniques properly, strkeing to the chest is an indicator that you "can" strike to the face because you have cleared the path to the center. Once you have trapped someone using lop da for instance there is nothing protecting the face from a strike so a strike to the face is implied by striking to the chest. And even when striking to the chest, one must be aware of the offensive body mechanics involved with said strike. You can't over extend the punching arm to much because if you were to strike with a fully extended arm to the chest, that might indicate that you have over commited and would otherwise not be able to faun sau quickly, an opponent could counter with a arm lock or offensive tech, or there would not be enough power if the situation happened to be real, so you kind of use your arm placement as a guidline to follow so you do not develop a bad habit.

This is just one example of many examples of how you "use" chi sao to show you proper form, timing, balance, etc...that could translate to help you fight better in a real situation using wing chun.
Now that being said, I also do not only do chi sao to find all the answers to fighting which is what some might ask, assume or imply with some following remarks that are sure to come. There are many "drills" to practice to develop good fighting skills like sparring, bag work, running, forms training, etc...

Never do I assume that the practice of chi sao would be the same as a real fight and anyone who does is either being taught wrong, misinformed or in wonderland.

[splinter]

Ok, out of curiosity, how many of the people who train wing chun regularly here are taught that Chi Sau is the ultimate expression of the art?

And the second question: How many TRAIN as though chi sau was the ultimate expression of the art? (This is different from the first question)

Just to give an example of my own experiences, I've always been taught Chi Sau as a bunch of fixed drills, where we start with full cooperation from the partner, and gradually build up intensity and resistance (In the form of both speed and power) for those individual drills. Once each of the individual drills are understood, it becomes randomized.

I've never heard the terms Poon Sau, or Gor Sau used in my school, but it's possible that I've been taught these things without the terminology. If someone could clarify those terms it would be appreciated.

I've learned other things in the same manner as chi sau, but starting from a squaring off position.

We hit pretty hard to the chest or gut, but pull punches to he head. But at the same time, we expect to get whacked if our defense isn't working. The goal is to develop sensitivity, and reaction. Nothing more.

At the end of the day, we put on some head gear, some MMA gloves, and spar with varying levels of intensity (anything form light taps to knocking each other silly). We vary the intensity so that we have the opportunity to work in some of the skills we've learned from chi sao or other exercieses as the intensity increases.

Do other people's training dffer much from this?

[Knifefighter]

You dont break limbs when at grappling training do you ?

No, but I am applying full force until the moment the opponent taps. If the opponent does not tap his joint will be snapped.
There is a big difference between applying a joint lock at full force until the opponent taps and pulling punches.

Do Boxers train against leg and groin kicks ?

No, but they train almost exactly as they fight.

Do Aikido guys retract punches, or leave them out to lock and manipulate suiting the style?

Most Aikido training is pretty unrealistic.
-

Do Judo schools hit pads and punch each other (GNP) ?

Like boxing, they train like they fight... just with a different emphasis.

Does a TKD practitioner spar an opponent with more punches or kicks ?

I'm kind of a fan of the athleticism of TKD, although I think it is pretty limited due to it's reliance on high kicks.

Does any art specifically train in street clothes with shoes on.

Training in a gi is a close approximation of street clothes. Same with wearing wrestling shoes. Same with t-shirts. Lots of styles do these things.

What limits or boundaries are thier in your POV Dale ?

My point of view is to train as close to real as possible. I guess the limitation to that is increased chance of injury... and that lots of t-shirts get torn from choke grips... and that when you get choked out with a t-shirt, you have a welt on your neck that makes it look like you just survived a hanging.

I guess another limitation is that you don't always feel like training at that level of realism.

[anerlich]

Right absolutely. In Chi sao we're not hitting to the head.

I'll have to tell that to my instructors and training partners, and get them to apologise for all the facial bruises and black eyes they have given me during chi sao sessions.

Nobody with any sense and remaining IQ points spars full contact with no restrictions or protective gear all the time. Getting knocked out once or twice can be educational, same as being choked out. Regular concussion is BAD for you. The brain cannot be toughened. Though you defintely need to learn to shed and to take a punch.

Clinch work, with attached striking is arguably just as good at developing useful sensitivity. Chi sao also teaches correct structure and limb positioning for WC techniques, depending on what value that may or may not have to you.

Does any art specifically train in street clothes with shoes on.

If you train in street clothes all the time and allow the collar and sleeve manipulation in BJJ, judo, etc. you are going to be spending mucho cash on street clothes. Like a new shirt and set of pants every session. The gi is just a version of clothes designed to take extended punishment.

Training in trainers (running shoes) is done at many schools. You don't train in dress shoes or stillettos for the same reason you don't train in tuxedos. IMPRACTICAL. Though then again some train in those Chinese slippers which IMO are about the least practical shoes for MA training ever invented.

It might be a good idea to train barefoot now and then. Things might kick off at the beach, or during a home invasion in the early hours while you were in bed.

[Liddel]

I asked - Do Boxers train against leg and groin kicks ?

No, but they train almost exactly as they fight.

Dale, i totally agree but i asked these questions of you as we were discussing "realism", not wether a style fights how they train.
Hence my questions about examples of other styles not training realistically.

My point of view is to train as close to real as possible. I guess the limitation to that is increased chance of injury...
I guess another limitation is that you don't always feel like training at that level of realism.

Totally see your POV. But remember one thing about VT - (at least for me)

- The nature of VT actions make it necessary to practice without gloves or protective gear on your hands. WHY ?
- because gloves inhibit touch and the way we control actions.

So we sacrifice the ability in Chi Sao / Poon Sao / Gor Sao / Lux Sao etc
to hit full force, because we train with bare hands in these platforms.

Fully realising this, we also complement our training with sparring (with gloves) - and pad work with and without gloves.

From a VT (standup) POV i want to train as close to real as i can. IMO pulling punches is a necessary part of the VT training i do and it doesnt happen all the time, people still get hit pulled pushed tripped, ive accidentally broken a friends nose when sparring, with an overhead elbow (kap Jarn).

The realism is there but i admit not all the time.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Edmund

Why pull a palm to the head? It's not going to injure them. Just don't shove up on their nose and they'll be fine.

you don't think a palm to the head will injure them? and if you do a full force to the nose you don't think that might injure them, I mean it's not going to be serious but I'll keep pulling mine