Is Chi Sau for fighting?

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey anerlich

I'll have to tell that to my instructors and training partners, and get them to apologise for all the facial bruises and black eyes they have given me during chi sao sessions.

Nobody with any sense and remaining IQ points spars full contact with no restrictions or protective gear all the time. Getting knocked out once or twice can be educational, same as being choked out. Regular concussion is BAD for you. The brain cannot be toughened. Though you defintely need to learn to shed and to take a punch.

Clinch work, with attached striking is arguably just as good at developing useful sensitivity. Chi sao also teaches correct structure and limb positioning for WC techniques, depending on what value that may or may not have to you.

I'm not saying that it doesn't happen but they are accidents and that's fine. People at my club have had broken fingers, split lips, bloody noses etc Nothing serious. I think that's why it doesn't go unnoticed when someone pulls their strike to my head

J

[SevenStar]

Why pull a palm to the head? It's not going to injure them. Just don't shove up on their nose and they'll be fine.

one of the times I've seen a cheek bone broken was from a palm.

[SevenStar]

I agree to some extent. but at what cost...

With the majority of "drills" where i train the only thing thats different to real fighting is not connecting - mainly due to the fact we have bare hands and we couldnt train as long if we did connect. So to complement this training we hit pads and each other in sparring with gloves to avoid said problem.

You dont break limbs when at grappling training do you ?
But you know you can if the situation arises.

Every art has some aspect of what we're discussing here dont they ?
- Do Boxers train against leg and groin kicks ?
- Do Aikido guys retract punches, or leave them out to lock and manipulate suiting the style?
- Do Judo schools hit pads and punch each other (GNP) ?
- Does a TKD practitioner spar an opponent with more punches or kicks ?

Does any art specifically train in street clothes with shoes on.

What limits or boundaries are thier in your POV Dale ?

in bjj I have seen muscles ripped and joints snapped. I saw a collar bone broken just this past weekend at a tourney our school organized. it is full force until the tap. no tap = joint snap.

same with judo and boxing. they fight how they train. u don't see judoka punhing mitts, but you don't see them punching when they fight, either.

when I trained jkd, we always wore shoes and wore street clothes ifwe wanted.

[SevenStar]

The way ive been taught is that if you are doing offensive techniques properly, strkeing to the chest is an indicator that you "can" strike to the face because you have cleared the path to the center. Once you have trapped someone using lop da for instance there is nothing protecting the face from a strike so a strike to the face is implied by striking to the chest.

sure, the reverse is also true. a face strike can imply a chest strike. The problem is that you fight how you train. Ever notice how many fighters punch only to the head? Why do they do that? Because in training, they head hunt.

[SevenStar]

I asked - Do Boxers train against leg and groin kicks ?



Dale, i totally agree but i asked these questions of you as we were discussing "realism", not wether a style fights how they train.
Hence my questions about examples of other styles not training realistically.

still very real training. How often do you deal with kickers in the street? Also, their primary realism is a boxing ring. you don't hear many people saying they are taking boxing for self defense - they are training so they can box. The added benefit is that boxing is great for streetfighting. WC on the other hand, is supposed to be an excellent streetfighting style. This being the case, you would expect to see training that reflects that.

[Tom Kagan]

- The nature of VT actions make it necessary to practice without gloves or protective gear on your hands. WHY ?
- because gloves inhibit touch and the way we control actions.

While it may be true that gloves "inhibit touch and the way we control actions", there is nothing in the "nature of VT" which makes it "necessary to practice without gloves or protective gear on your hands."

[Wayfaring]

From another discussion, I came up with a question: Do you feel WC 'Chi Sau' is for fighting, or is it just a training drill?
If so why, or if not why?

Thanks,
Jonathan

(and if this has bean hashed out already, I appologize - I'm too lazy to search, and would like to start the discussion again anyway if it was..)

Johnathan,

What's up? To answer this question, I will need to mimic Socrates.
If you and I are to discuss chi sau, we must first define our terms.

I've come to realize that when I say chi sau, it is not potato versus potaato to all those on internet forums I converse with. There is a HUGE difference in what 'chi sau' means as a drill or practice. It ranges from a static steering wheel type drill to a fair approximation of range and energy sparring. There also is a large difference in the way different families or lineages train it.

So I will add a corollary question to your initial one.

How do you define 'chi sau' ?

[t_niehoff]

Chi sao is like the tango -- it takes two people cooperating to do it. By cooperating, I mean they are agreeing (implicitly) to move in certain ways, behave in certain ways, react in certain ways, etc., no matter how "hard" they go. If one side doesn't do those things, a fight breaks out! You can't do chi sao unless the other guy cooperates and goes along with the game.

A problem arises when chi sao is used for "training" in that we come to rely on those "chi sao fixed patterns of behavior" -- which are not the actions or behaviors that will take place in actual fighting -- and will form corresponding habits that while effective in dealing with those actions, are not effective in fighting (where those sorts of responses won't happen).

Chi sao is a good platform for teaching fundamental skills; it is a poor platform for training fighting skills.

[CFT]

- The nature of VT actions make it necessary to practice without gloves or protective gear on your hands. WHY ?
- because gloves inhibit touch and the way we control actions.

I disagree. The touch contact is with the forearms more than with the hands. Boxing gloves may inhibit actions like laap/lop sau but you don't need that much padding in your gloves - you just need enough to protect the knuckles.

[Wayfaring]

Chi sao is like the tango -- it takes two people cooperating to do it. By cooperating, I mean they are agreeing (implicitly) to move in certain ways, behave in certain ways, react in certain ways, etc., no matter how "hard" they go. If one side doesn't do those things, a fight breaks out! You can't do chi sao unless the other guy cooperates and goes along with the game.

So to clarify, this is how you define 'chi sau'? And how you train it? Or is it rather
the definition that has led you to abandon 'chi sau' as a training drill? Or morph it into something you do with a different name?

A problem arises when chi sao is used for "training" in that we come to rely on those "chi sao fixed patterns of behavior" -- which are not the actions or behaviors that will take place in actual fighting -- and will form corresponding habits that while effective in dealing with those actions, are not effective in fighting (where those sorts of responses won't happen).

Chi sao is a good platform for teaching fundamental skills; it is a poor platform for training fighting skills.

This conclusion, while a logically true and reasonable answer, is based upon the general premise of your definition above. Does everybody mean what Terence means above when talking about 'chi sau'?

[t_niehoff]

So to clarify, this is how you define 'chi sau'? And how you train it? Or is it rather
the definition that has led you to abandon 'chi sau' as a training drill? Or morph it into something you do with a different name?

I'm not "defining" chi sao, I'm saying that is the nature of chi sao. Two people both using limited WCK actions/reactions, sticking, etc. and it "works" only as long as both sides stick to "the rules" of that game. Lots of people get "good" playing that game (you will if you play any game enough). Try to do chi sao with someone who isn't trying to play the game.

This conclusion, while a logically true and reasonable answer, is based upon the general premise of your definition above. Does everybody mean what Terence means above when talking about 'chi sau'?

That's what is going on. There is no premise. Chi sao, the activity, the game, works because both sides are implicitly (or even unconsciously) "playing by the rules" of chi sao.

Chi sao is not a realistic environment so it can't develop realistic skills.

[leung jam]

Many, if not most, people do chi sao with chest strikes only.

How do you do it?

Of course even if you do full force strikes with protective equipment, you are still starting from the unrealistic steering wheel position.

I usually just lurk on these forums but feel i have to reply to your misinformation.
I have studied at 3 different schools in uk and know plenty of people from other wc/vt/wt schools here and yet have never heard of anyone only punching to chest in chisau, maybe in amerika things are different? Reading some of your posts you appear to have a real problem with wc, perhaps down to your training punching at chests , yet you spend your time repeating yourself on a wc forum, why dude ? do u really think you are going to convert everyone into some wannabe cage fighter, why not spend more time training.

[Airdrawndagger]

A problem arises when chi sao is used for "training" in that we come to rely on those "chi sao fixed patterns of behavior" -- which are not the actions or behaviors that will take place in actual fighting -- and will form corresponding habits that while effective in dealing with those actions, are not effective in fighting (where those sorts of responses won't happen).

Chi sao is a good platform for teaching fundamental skills; it is a poor platform for training fighting skills.

I couldnt disagree more.
You practice chi sau so you can learn body mechanics, timing, speed, reaction and sensitivity, etc which WILL translate to a fight. You have to keep in mind that an opponent whom you are fighting or sparring will not "chi sao" but when engaging in combat the hand formations will resemble "in some cases" similar hand formations in chi sao there by allowing you to react according to your training.
That is the whole premise of rolling with a training partner, your arms will be constantly moving in numerous positions allowing you to preform different techs at different moments during chi sao. That is the whole reason why we roll so that there are no fixed positions which will allow you to automaticly respond to the opponent.
I guess it just boils down to how you interpret what you are doing during training and how it does translate to a real situation. What ever im doing during practice, i always relate it to a real situation. Doesnt everyone else?

[Knifefighter]

I usually just lurk on these forums but feel i have to reply to your misinformation.
I have studied at 3 different schools in uk and know plenty of people from other wc/vt/wt schools here and yet have never heard of anyone only punching to chest in chisau,

If not to the chest, where are these full contact punches being targeted?

[JPinAZ]

Johnathan,

What's up? To answer this question, I will need to mimic Socrates.
If you and I are to discuss chi sau, we must first define our terms.

I've come to realize that when I say chi sau, it is not potato versus potaato to all those on internet forums I converse with. There is a HUGE difference in what 'chi sau' means as a drill or practice. It ranges from a static steering wheel type drill to a fair approximation of range and energy sparring. There also is a large difference in the way different families or lineages train it.

So I will add a corollary question to your initial one.

How do you define 'chi sau' ?

Hello,

I agree, chi sau most likely means different things to different people. I was going to wait a few pages before adding my few cents.

From what I've seen/read/etc Chi sau can be defined many different ways: as soley a sensitivity training 'drill'. Or it seems some view it later a more free-style light WC sparring with given rule-sets/constraints (retain certain facing, use certain tools, keeping contact, etc).
And some call it a game with no real-world application to 'real fighting'.

Ans it seems some feel what you learn in chi sau directly applys to fighting, and this I would agree with. From a certain point of view, the range recognition, facing, timing, sensitivity, structures, gate theories, etc can ALL be applied directly to fighting if you have a certain focus while 'chi sauing'
Depending on the POV chi sau is one, all or none of these things. 'Chi Sau' can be a general 'overall' term for bridging, or a more focused term for only one range/facing and a more limited toolset used in that bridging.

From what I understand of 'Chi Sau', over-all it is a training/bridging platfrom for building an awareness of how to bridge at different ranges and facings - with proper structures, gate theories, energies, etc. Depending on these ranges (hieght, width & depth) and facings, the contact could be wrist, arm, striking point, etc. The techniques are just a result of understanding the proper postion, range, etc (as listed above)
But the true focus as I understand it is in recongnising how to initially bridge, neutralize the bridge, then control/strike in a given timeframe.
This happens in 'fighting' all the time doesn't it?

I believe this awarness of timing, facing, space, structure, etc DIRECTLY translates into fighting. From my POV, chi sau IS fighting, if even for a breif second in time during the fight. Given a certain range/facing and understanding the correct reaction, chi sau can exist.
Can I recognize the attack? Can I neutralize the attack with the proper structure? Can I then set up a position of advantage that I can strike from safely? IMO, these are questions Chi Sau training can answer.
Also, from my POV, 'chi sau' isn't just a sensitivity training tool. Sensitivity is a result of proper chi sau training, but not it's main focus.

Ok, enough for now, gotta get back to work

Jonathan