Is Chi Sau for fighting?

[Nick Forrer]

FWIW

I generally only punch to the chest in chi sau (at least in the first instance)

because

a) It allows me to hit harder and stops me from flicking or pulling my punches or over extending to hit (which are bad habits which come from being a head hunter and which most wc people IME have from indulging in too much long range 'tag' chi sau)

b) It conditions my partner to take strikes without busting his face up (and vice versa)

c) A good body shot can be just as effective as a head shot and easier to get given that most people tend to protect their head more than their body.

Moreover a body shot can then be used to set up the head shot when he drops his hands to try and defend it...also...the head is more mobile than the torso and someone with good head movement in all directions can be hard to hit. It also leaves you more vulnerable to being taken down.

[forever young]

Chi sao is like the tango -- it takes two people cooperating to do it. By cooperating, I mean they are agreeing (implicitly) to move in certain ways, behave in certain ways, react in certain ways, etc., no matter how "hard" they go. If one side doesn't do those things, a fight breaks out! You can't do chi sao unless the other guy cooperates and goes along with the game.

A problem arises when chi sao is used for "training" in that we come to rely on those "chi sao fixed patterns of behavior" -- which are not the actions or behaviors that will take place in actual fighting -- and will form corresponding habits that while effective in dealing with those actions, are not effective in fighting (where those sorts of responses won't happen).

Chi sao is a good platform for teaching fundamental skills; it is a poor platform for training fighting skills.

imho this is one of the most accurate statements i have seen regarding chisau in this thread!!!
i have recently "seen the light" regarding the real nature of chisau (as i see it)
i used to chisau at pretty full force (i have broken the ribs of two chisau partners and had my own ribs broken twice, plus been told by my sibak he was TRYING to knock me out!!!!) now i can honestly say that i was 1,a total ass and 2, totally wrong about chisau. some of you might have heard of this guy, perhaps you think its total rubbish whatever but as nino put it chisau is a game for friends...if you want to whack eachother at least have the courtesy of telling your partner and lifting any restrictions as well as perhaps use some basic safety equiptment, the guys who think its ok to bash your PARTNER (not opponent) is misguided. work together to develop skills in other areas and leave the hitting to sparring
http://www.ninobernardo.com/divorcin...e_article.html read here and see what you think and ill leave you with in my opinion good chisau http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDgGp_1Azr0

[IRONMONK]

In Brendle Ingle's boxing gym they do body sparring instead of head sparring

But anyway in chi sao dont tend to go to the face-i think it depends on who im training with .I go to the face/body in free-fighting.

[Edmund]

one of the times I've seen a cheek bone broken was from a palm.

In chi sao? From what distance was it thrown?

I think it's irrelevant what damage could be done. I don't see a lot of injuries occurring so I don't see much point dwelling on the issue but as I said you can take whatever precautions you need to make it safer.

I think the original question about the role of chi sao has been answered many times over by everyone. As has KF's assumptions about how everyone does it wrong.

Anyone who doesn't do WC really doesn't have a relevant opinion about it AFAIC.
It doesn't matter whether they do it or not. They aren't learning WC.

[SevenStar]

[QUOTE=Edmund;751150]In chi sao? From what distance was it thrown?

I think it's irrelevant what damage could be done. I don't see a lot of injuries occurring so I don't see much point dwelling on the issue but as I said you can take whatever precautions you need to make it safer.
/QUOTE]

yeah. they had agreed on hard contact.

I agree with you on the above.

[chisauking]

I'm going to keep this short and sweet:

Chisau is wing chun (break down the techniques and you will see it's the same techniques contained within the forms), so, in short, you can use chisau in fighting. Or, to be more precise, the techniques in chisau is the tools in which we use to fight.

People say there are limits in chisau (especially the BJJers who has no real interest in wing chun), but the truth is, the only limits is the limits which one places upon oneself. A misguided individual states that chisau requires a compliant partner, but this is totally untrue, for one of the main reasons for chisau is to learn how to respond to resisting energy.

There are many levels to chisau, unfortunately, only excepetional practitioners go past the primary levels.

Off course, BJJ rolling is far more superior and realistic compared to wing chun chisau (this is to make all the BJJers on this forum, which there are many, happy)

[Liddel]

there is nothing in the "nature of VT" which makes it "necessary to practice without gloves or protective gear on your hands."

Obviously we are different Tom (which is fine).

Where i train we use quite a bit of wrist action in attack and defensive movements, which is taken away when wearing even 6oz fingerless gloves.
All the gloves we have minmise range of motion in the wrist.

When breaking a bridge down to create room for center actions my fingers come into play also which is hindered with big gloves.

So if i want to train like i fight (the point im addressing) i must decide to train without gloves for a large percentage of it. NOT ALL.

FWIW this is not the be all and end all, im not govern by forms and theory so much i cant use gloves and adapt, which i do.

I disagree. The touch contact is with the forearms more than with the hands.

Obviously not for me mate, hence my POV.
Jeez - i would have though most regulars here would know there are alot of different VT approaches here.

[Ultimatewingchun]

... but there's much within chi sao that can be used for fighting - if you understand how to take those things out of chi sao and work with them....first as part of more fight-specific drills....then as part of completely spontaneous sparring/fighting.

Like a chess game:

First you learn how the queen moves...the king...the knights, the bishops, the rooks (castles), the pawns...

then you learn which ones have the most potential to do damage (ie.- the queen, then the rook, etc.)...

then you learn what are the limitations of each piece....

then you learn how to counter them (ie.- how can a knight counter a bishop?)...

then you start learning how to use two or more of them together as a team to take an important position, (ie.- dominating/occupying the center)...how to open up a line, surround the opponent's vulnerable targets, make a strike...or multiple strikes, one after the other...cut off his ability to counter, how to always be one move ahead of the guy so he's always on defense, etc...

THEN YOU PLAY A GAME.

(But always within the parameters of what is possible - given the pieces you are using...ie.- wing chun is close range striking/kicking...with a few well placed sweeps and one or two possible standing armlocks).

That's it.

Otherwise...it might be time to get the pool cue out.

[leung jam]

If not to the chest, where are these full contact punches being targeted?

At focus pads, wall bag & hanging bags. Why would you want to injure your partner or injure yourself unless you getting paid well for it.
In the longterm full force punches/kicks will damage you, then what, when you sitting there in your wheelchair with your arthritis and possibly brain damage you can reminisce about how great you were once were.
Perhaps its ego that really causes the damage?


Extract(s) from http://www.sportsline.com/boxing/story/10010296
Interview with Bas Rutten-

Q: Are you looking possibly in the long-term to get back into the cage or ring?

BR: No. No, I'm not, because I have a very bad combination in my knee; I have an ACL and meniscus and I have arthritis on top of it. If it picks up the ACL and meniscus, my knee is going to be more tight and when it's more tight the arthritis will come back that much harder.

Q: Would you have any interest in going back?

BR: If my knee is good, yes, you know, but the pain in my knee takes all the pleasure from my training. I can't even move my knee to the side. As long as I feel that pain, I don't want to train and I can't fight.

-------------

[sunfist]

Chi sao is a chess game. It is a sterile environment that allows for the development of and experimentation with WC strategy in its purest form. For it to be comparable to fighting, you would need to introduce a chaotic element to the practice, but then it would be fighting, not chi sau.

Some would argue it holds no value whatsoever, but these would be the same people with no real interest in wing chun as a whole. I do agree its overemphasised though, Its understandable that people get hooked on the chess game (and the sense of certainty it provides) when they should be playing poker.

[CFT]

Obviously not for me mate, hence my POV.
Jeez - i would have though most regulars here would know there are alot of different VT approaches here.

As you are so quick to point out there are different approaches, so I stated that mine was different. I agree that gloves do make a slight difference, sometimes it interferes with the technique if you just catch it wrong, but not enough to rule out their use in Wing Chun training.

Re-reading some of the posts ... I should qualify that we don't typically practice chi sau with gloves; we only tend to break them out for sparring or punchbag practice.

[t_niehoff]

imho this is one of the most accurate statements i have seen regarding chisau in this thread!!!

That's because WCK people get brainwashed and start believing chi sao is WCK applictation.

i have recently "seen the light" regarding the real nature of chisau (as i see it)
i used to chisau at pretty full force (i have broken the ribs of two chisau partners and had my own ribs broken twice, plus been told by my sibak he was TRYING to knock me out!!!!) now i can honestly say that i was 1,a total ass and 2, totally wrong about chisau. some of you might have heard of this guy, perhaps you think its total rubbish whatever but as nino put it chisau is a game for friends...

Of course it is a game, and you can use that game to teach some of the skills you can later - if you develop them further - use in fighting. But that game is a very different game than fighting. No one "moves" or "acts" or "behaves" realistically (as they will really move or act or behave in fighitng) in chi sao. Because we are not moving realistically in chi sao it is an unrealistic drill (unrealistic in that it doesn't mirror reality). And a person can only develop realistic skills by training realistically.

if you want to whack eachother at least have the courtesy of telling your partner and lifting any restrictions as well as perhaps use some basic safety equiptment, the guys who think its ok to bash your PARTNER (not opponent) is misguided.

No matter how "hard" one goes in chi sao, it won't make chi sao realistic -- chi sao is built around both sides playing by the same unrealistic rules. In fighting, people will just no behave like they do in chi sao; they're not going to move, react, etc. anything like chi sao. So I agree, full power chi sao in misguided. That's not what chi ssao is for.

work together to develop skills in other areas and leave the hitting to sparring
http://www.ninobernardo.com/divorcin...e_article.html read here and see what you think and ill leave you with in my opinion good chisau http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDgGp_1Azr0

The most basic tenet of effective training is that your practice should come as close to the performance of your target skill as possible (specificity). It is poor training to move, act, behave one way in training and another when fighting. Not only is this supported by modern research, it is how all really good fighters and functional arts train (BJJ, boxing, wrestling, muay thai, judo, etc.).

In chi sao no one moves as they will in a fight, so they are developing habits of movement that are not appropriate to fighting. So it becomes counter-productive to development of fighting skill. Now I'm not saying to "trash" chi sao (though you could), I'm saying that it is a platform that allows beginners to learn certain movements, skills, etc. and become comfortable performing them. However, those movements, skills, etc. will not be performed like that in fighting (for a number of reasons including that your opponent won't move like your partner in chi sao). And anyone who believes differently just needs to tape their chi sao, tape their fighting, and compare.

[Knifefighter]

Many of the responses on this thread thread are perfect examples of why so many people who practice WC, can't really use it once the fight is on.

Seven Star, who uses his stuff for real in a "non-sport" environment weekly, put it perfectly in another thread:

we are talking about the similarity between training and application. I fight with the same techniques I train. you guys admittedly don't fight with chi sao, for example, so your practice game and real game are further removed from eachother than mine are.

[SevenStar]

At focus pads, wall bag & hanging bags. Why would you want to injure your partner or injure yourself unless you getting paid well for it.
In the longterm full force punches/kicks will damage you, then what, when you sitting there in your wheelchair with your arthritis and possibly brain damage you can reminisce about how great you were once were.
Perhaps its ego that really causes the damage?

you can spar hard contact without severe longterm injuries. That sounds like a copout.

Extract(s) from http://www.sportsline.com/boxing/story/10010296
Interview with Bas Rutten-

Q: Are you looking possibly in the long-term to get back into the cage or ring?

BR: No. No, I'm not, because I have a very bad combination in my knee; I have an ACL and meniscus and I have arthritis on top of it. If it picks up the ACL and meniscus, my knee is going to be more tight and when it's more tight the arthritis will come back that much harder.

Q: Would you have any interest in going back?

BR: If my knee is good, yes, you know, but the pain in my knee takes all the pleasure from my training. I can't even move my knee to the side. As long as I feel that pain, I don't want to train and I can't fight.

-------------

This is a man with a long and arduous pro career. This is a man with 33 fights - and he did have a fight as recently as last year. He won. He's been fighting pro since like 1992. Such things are bound to happen. Look at all of the injuries that abound from pro football. Such is the nature of contact events, especially on a pro level.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"We are talking about the similarity between training and application. I fight with the same techniques I train. you guys admittedly don't fight with chi sao, for example, so your practice game and real game are further removed from each other than mine are." (7 Star)


****NOT REALLY TRUE...for those wing chun people who truly understand what chi sao is all about. Here's another analogy, 7:

when you roll in BJJ - using strictly BJJ rules (ie.- no striking, wearing gi's with all the handles, some schools start from the knees, etc.)...then you are using that kind of "drilling" the same way chi sao is a "drill" - and if you want to use what you learn in that kind of rolling for real (ie.- real life fighting)...then you have to make some big adjustments to the rolling drills...

ie.- you start from a standing position...you use punching, kicking, footwork, knees and elbows in the clinch....strikes when on the ground, less reliance on gi handles, etc.

BUT YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THIS: the typical wing chun practice game and real game are further removed from each other than yours are because most wing chun people spend too much time on chi sao, forms, and wooden dummy - and not enough time playing poker, as the other poster said...sparring/fighting.