Is Chi Sau for fighting?

[Knifefighter]

when you roll in BJJ - using strictly BJJ rules (ie.- no striking, wearing gi's with all the handles, some schools start from the knees, etc.)...then you are using that kind of "drilling" the same way chi sao is a "drill" - and if you want to use what you learn in that kind of rolling for real (ie.- real life fighting)...then you have to make some big adjustments to the rolling drills...

BJJ rolling is 60% of what will probably happen during a fight (i.e. grappling on the ground) for a BJJ trained guy. Another 30% of what will probably happen during a fight for a BJJ guy will include striking on the ground and/or striking while standing. 10% will be about the takedown. The grappling only training has direct application to 60% of a BJJ guy's fighting.

On the other hand, the positions of chi sao may take up maybe 5% of a fight. That's a lot of training time for only 5% application.

Not to mention the fact that when BJJ guys roll, they are training at 90-100% of the intensity at which they will be fighting.

less reliance on gi handles

Gi control translates directly to what happens in a fight. Most people are close to fully clothed when they get into an altercation or are assaulted. Clothes can be manipulated the same way a gi can be used.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"On the other hand, the positions of chi sao may take up maybe 5% of a fight. That's a lot of training time for only 5% application." (Dale)


***FALSE PREMISE....coming from someone who knows very little about high level chi sao, it's applications, how to take those applications and drill them realistically, or high level wing chun in general.

[JPinAZ]

That's because WCK people get brainwashed and start believing chi sao is WCK applictation.

Of course it is a game, and you can use that game to teach some of the skills you can later - if you develop them further - use in fighting. But that game is a very different game than fighting. No one "moves" or "acts" or "behaves" realistically (as they will really move or act or behave in fighitng) in chi sao. Because we are not moving realistically in chi sao it is an unrealistic drill (unrealistic in that it doesn't mirror reality). And a person can only develop realistic skills by training realistically.

No matter how "hard" one goes in chi sao, it won't make chi sao realistic -- chi sao is built around both sides playing by the same unrealistic rules. In fighting, people will just no behave like they do in chi sao; they're not going to move, react, etc. anything like chi sao. So I agree, full power chi sao in misguided. That's not what chi ssao is for.

The most basic tenet of effective training is that your practice should come as close to the performance of your target skill as possible (specificity). It is poor training to move, act, behave one way in training and another when fighting. Not only is this supported by modern research, it is how all really good fighters and functional arts train (BJJ, boxing, wrestling, muay thai, judo, etc.).

In chi sao no one moves as they will in a fight, so they are developing habits of movement that are not appropriate to fighting. So it becomes counter-productive to development of fighting skill. Now I'm not saying to "trash" chi sao (though you could), I'm saying that it is a platform that allows beginners to learn certain movements, skills, etc. and become comfortable performing them. However, those movements, skills, etc. will not be performed like that in fighting (for a number of reasons including that your opponent won't move like your partner in chi sao). And anyone who believes differently just needs to tape their chi sao, tape their fighting, and compare.

It really depends on what you are training. If you ware training/viewing 'chi sau' as you stated above, sure. But IMO, you are completely wrong when you way chi sau does not train fighting skills.
There ARE moments in time during a fight where chi sau is appropriate. Plain and simple. And, if you view chi sau as just a training game and not an overall bridging strategy, then again you could be correct from YOUR POV. Also depends on how one defines the term 'chi sau' as I posted earlier. It is only a game if that's how you approach it....

Jonathan

[t_niehoff]

It really depends on what you are training. If you ware training/viewing 'chi sau' as you stated above, sure. But IMO, you are completely wrong when you way chi sau does not train fighting skills.
There ARE moments in time during a fight where chi sau is appropriate. Plain and simple.

Anyone can say this -- it is theory. Go down to a MMA gym and spar with someone decent, tape it, and show me where the "chi sao" comes out. It won't. You won't be able to move or act or behave like you do in chi sao. And, if you haven't taken those things from chi sao and sparred with them, they won't even work in sparring. So you are not getting "fighting skills" from chi sao.

And, if you view chi sau as just a training game and not an overall bridging strategy, then again you could be correct from YOUR POV. Also depends on how one defines the term 'chi sau' as I posted earlier. It is only a game if that's how you approach it....

Jonathan

I don't care how you "view" it. The environment of chi sao is not the same as the environment of a fight. So whatever you learn in chi sao will need to be adapted and modified for fighting. If you disagree, show me someone who moves the same way in fighting as they do in chi sao. That adaptation and modification is taking what you learn (in chi sao) and making it a functional fighting skill (by realsitic training that includes sparring).

[JPinAZ]

Anyone can say this -- it is theory. Go down to a MMA gym and spar with someone decent, tape it, and show me where the "chi sao" comes out. It won't. You won't be able to move or act or behave like you do in chi sao. And, if you haven't taken those things from chi sao and sparred with them, they won't even work in sparring. So you are not getting "fighting skills" from chi sao.

I don't care how you "view" it. The environment of chi sao is not the same as the environment of a fight. So whatever you learn in chi sao will need to be adapted and modified for fighting. If you disagree, show me someone who moves the same way in fighting as they do in chi sao. That adaptation and modification is taking what you learn (in chi sao) and making it a functional fighting skill (by realsitic training that includes sparring).

Again, you are only correct from your POV. If you look at and train chi sau as just a 'game' or something to build sensitivity, then you might be right.
But if chi sau is an over-all definition for all bridge training, then it DIRECTLY translated into fighting. And this is how I train and view chi sau (which includes kiu sau and chi kiu brindging as well)

Say whatever you want, it is only from yout obviously limited and/or closed view on the subject

Jonathan

[Knifefighter]

***FALSE PREMISE....coming from someone who knows very little about high level chi sao, it's applications, how to take those applications and drill them realistically, or high level wing chun in general.

See Terrence's post above.

He said it better than I could... plus he probably knows more about "high level ch sao" than you do.

[t_niehoff]

Again, you are only correct from your POV. If you look at and train chi sau as just a 'game' or something to build sensitivity, then you might be right.
But if chi sau is an over-all definition for all bridge training, then it DIRECTLY translated into fighting. And this is how I train and view chi sau (which includes kiu sau and chi kiu brindging as well)

Say whatever you want, it is only from yout obviously limited and/or closed view on the subject

Jonathan

I understand that you see chi sao as an over-all definition for all bridge training -- fine. And any bridge training that isn't performed realistically (under fight-like conditions) is not developing realistic fighting skills. You may be learning those skills but nonrealistic training can't develop realistic skills.

An addition:

I distinguish skills from fighting skills. You can learn a skill and perform it in a drill or in other unrealistic environments but to be a fighting skill a person needs to be able to perform that skill reliably under fighting conditions. How well developed that fighting skill is can be determined by the quality of opponent you can perform it against (in fighitng).

[forever young]

It is only a game if that's how you approach it....

Jonathan

Are you saying its fighting then? or perhaps simulated fighting? or sparring? wing chun used to have something called gor/gwoh sau which is the equivalent of what is called in bjj SPECIFIC sparring using wing chun shapes, chisau is a different beast altogether and those who mix the two up are running the risk of
1, missing the point of chisau entirely and missing the benefits and
2, missing the benefits that gor sau gives (wing chun specific sparring from a broken bridge) anyone who mixes the two up is imho wrong!!!! chisau is a stimulus based game where the wc shapes/energies/timing/distancing/reflex action/footwork/etc etc are trained in a safe and sensible manner....
free sparring using anything (including 'non wing chun' techniques) should also be included in anyones training schedule as well as wall bag/punch bag/focus mitts/thai pads/jong practices
just my 02

[JPinAZ]

I understand that you see chi sao as an over-all definition for all bridge training -- fine. And any bridge training that isn't performed realistically (under fight-like conditions) is not developing realistic fighting skills. You may be learning those skills but nonrealistic training can't develop realistic skills.

An addition:

I distinguish skills from fighting skills. You can learn a skill and perform it in a drill or in other unrealistic environments but to be a fighting skill a person needs to be able to perform that skill reliably under fighting conditions. How well developed that fighting skill is can be determined by the quality of opponent you can perform it against (in fighitng).

I understand - if the training is not realistic (cooperative partner, low energy, spacial/facing constraints while 'doing chi sau', etc), then they results are less like fighing.

But it seems you would agree then, that if my bridge training/chi sau is done under what you call 'realistic conditions' then chi sau CAN be a part of not only fight training, but also chi sau can be 'part of fighting'?

I agree, the quality of the training partner can directly effect your effectiveness for fight trianing. But you've said this a lot already, I didn't think that was the point of the discussion (directly anyway).

Jonathan

[JPinAZ]

Are you saying its fighting then? or perhaps simulated fighting? or sparring? wing chun used to have something called gor/gwoh sau which is the equivalent of what is called in bjj SPECIFIC sparring using wing chun shapes, chisau is a different beast altogether and those who mix the two up are running the risk of
1, missing the point of chisau entirely and missing the benefits and
2, missing the benefits that gor sau gives (wing chun specific sparring from a broken bridge) anyone who mixes the two up is imho wrong!!!! chisau is a stimulus based game where the wc shapes/energies/timing/distancing/reflex action/footwork/etc etc are trained in a safe and sensible manner....
free sparring using anything (including 'non wing chun' techniques) should also be included in anyones training schedule as well as wall bag/punch bag/focus mitts/thai pads/jong practices
just my 02

I'm saying, from how I approach my training, 'chi sau' is a lot more than just a fixed training drill. In a broad sense, it encompasses all bridge training. In a more narrowed sense (as I've seen/understand chi sau defined by others) it is a bridging concept for a given range/facing.

We usually would start off with more fixed time/space drills and then remove the constraints gradually as experience builds. But it has a much different focus than just 'rolling' and going from there.. (as I understand a lot of people view 'chi sau')

My definition of chi sau might be a lot different (most likely the case). I went into more detail on page 3 of this thread regarding this.

when you say "chisau is a stimulus based game where the wc shapes/energies/timing/distancing/reflex action/footwork/etc etc are trained in a safe and sensible manner...." I would agree with this, except that, as I view it, it isn't just a 'stimulus game'

Regards,

Jonathan

***** edit *****
I am saying chi sau IS a part of fighting. To train the concepts, we do not 'fight', but the training does directly result into fighting skills.

[t_niehoff]

I understand - if the training is not realistic (cooperative partner, low energy, spacial/facing constraints while 'doing chi sau', etc), then they results are less like fighing.

Not exactly. I'm saying that a person can't develop anything to the level of fighting skill without working it in that (fighting) environment.

But it seems you would agree then, that if my bridge training/chi sau is done under what you call 'realistic conditions' then chi sau CAN be a part of not only fight training, but also chi sau can be 'part of fighting'?

Then it is fighting. If you take something and put it into fighting, so that you are fighting with it, then it is fighting.

But this is not what is happening with the drill called chi sao.

Here's an example -- you certainly have learned how to do the bong sao to lop da, right? You do it in the lop sao drills, you do it in chi sao. Now, try to do that as you do it in the drills in fighting against anyone decent (MMA person). Show me anyone -- ANYONE -- who can do it reliably in fighting the way they perform it in the drill. You won't find anyone. Why? Because it doesn't really work like it does in the drills; it needs to be adapted, modified to fighting. Is it still bong sao to lop da? Sure. But the drills, lop sao and chi sao, while teaching it, is not what will train it to work in fighitng. Fighting will.

I agree, the quality of the training partner can directly effect your effectiveness for fight trianing. But you've said this a lot already, I didn't think that was the point of the discussion (directly anyway).

Jonathan

Not "can" but will.

[JPinAZ]

Not exactly. I'm saying that a person can't develop anything to the level of fighting skill without working it in that (fighting) environment.

Then it is fighting. If you take something and put it into fighting, so that you are fighting with it, then it is fighting.

But this is not what is happening with the drill called chi sao.

Here's an example -- you certainly have learned how to do the bong sao to lop da, right? You do it in the lop sao drills, you do it in chi sao. Now, try to do that as you do it in the drills in fighting against anyone decent (MMA person). Show me anyone -- ANYONE -- who can do it reliably in fighting the way they perform it in the drill. You won't find anyone. Why? Because it doesn't really work like it does in the drills; it needs to be adapted, modified to fighting. Is it still bong sao to lop da? Sure. But the drills, lop sao and chi sao, while teaching it, is not what will train it to work in fighitng. Fighting will.

Not "can" but will.

I'm not talking about just a 'drill' called chi sau.

And I disagree with the bond/lap comment. There is a correct time and place for that, and I can't see how it can't be made to work under the correct conditions during a fight.
And, I've never done any drills called 'lop sau'. It sounds like you are focused on the techniques and trying to 'make' them work? In my training, I'm focused on something a little deeper

Jonathan

[Ultimatewingchun]

"See Terrence's post above.

He said it better than I could... plus he probably knows more about 'high level chi sao' than you do." (Dale)


***YEAH, RIGHT.....

[Vajramusti]

Far removed from wing chun - at least the title of the forum.

With two of the frequent posters--- one who obviously doesnt know much about chi sao and the other repeating the same points with just some shifts in wording.

Of course fighting experience counts. There are different approaches to fighting-
and IF one's own arsenal has a weakness then developing the weak area is not a bad idea.

Good fighting systems have their own training system---and aspects of that training is to build up qualities in that system. And that training often doesnt exactly look like fighting.Not all fights look the same-each one is a somewhat unique event varying with location, size, weight, experience differentials. Some hit straight other flail etc.Speed bag training in boxing or rope skipping doesnt look like fighting, roadwork doesnt look like fighting in the ring.Without them,,, footwork can suffer, timing can suffer and one's gas tank can be empty.

Without chi sao--- wing chun timing or timings will not improve.

Chi sao -learning it well in all its various manifestations is an important part of wing chun training- to do it well- one has to bring together many other skills. And ofcourse full contact, fighting and related experiences also count.

Unfortunately- given the great diversities and divergences in wing chun training-
what one means by chi sao also varies and in the noise of this and related threads-there is hardly any sensible discussions on it. And key boarding is not fighting... the frequent posters too are just talking about fighting no matter how intensely or sarcastically they post..

Further- to learn from fights- good analysis by some one else who is their helps.
Participants do not always catch their own mistakes.As they say a lawyer who advocates for himself often has a fool for a client.

One of the problem on forums is that some folks as in the case of two frequent posters in shrill ways repeatedly assert that they know what every wing chun person is doing and what experience they have or are acquiring.. Presumptuous. And repetition doesnt make it less so.

For folks who have the time to repeat basically the same old postings -they apparently have the time to waste.

[Knifefighter]

one who obviously doesnt know much about chi sao

Hmmm.... that must be me.

Since you are presuming that I don't know much about chi sao and that I am wasting my time, maybe you could make it less of a waste of time and more of a productive endeavor by pointing out what is different about chi sao than the way I am representing it.

Speed bag training in boxing or rope skipping doesnt look like fighting, roadwork doesnt look like fighting in the ring.

Other systems have areas of training that could become more efficient. Pointing out the less efficient parts of other systems does not make yours more efficient.