Internal- Mike Patterson's theroy?

[count]

You make a good arguments and your points are well taken. I have only practiced kung fu, some "external" and lot's of "internal" and even "external" kung fu emphasizes relaxed striking and internal energy like chan su jin and fa jing etc. So I am certainly not an authority on all martial arts. But I think, even in Karate styles training methods, there is stretching, breathing and meditation exercises which do promote internal energy flow and are similar to ones found in internal kung fu, yoga, aikido, and other internal health practices. I have always (forgive my elitist attitude) felt that Karate is only rudimentary kung fu that over emphasizes power striking and overlooks the subtle circles and curves of Kung fu. But I still feel once mastered, there is a fair amount of internal characteristics to it. To be able to hit or be hit requires a fair amount of internal development. Breath, tension and relaxation, focus, alignment, cardiovascular development, balance and coordination, and these are just the ones that can be seen on the surface. Having not practiced karate I really can not say for certain, but it seems to me, everyone has chi and can develop it's flow by doing the exercises that focus on breath, tension/relaxation, proper alignment of the meridian's, and using the imagination to move it. Even people who do not practice martial arts of any kind have a fair chance of developing internal health, strength, longevity, and balance through normal day to day activity. I think in order to resolve this debate we must first define what is internal power. For me, it is the ability to align your entire body and coordinate relaxation and tension to deliver maximum power with minimum effort. The ability to receive a blow and distribute it to minimize the impact. And to be able to quickly recover and focus after your energy is disrupted by the blow. Maybe after many more years of practice, when I am old(er), I will appreciate the good I have done for my organs and glands, my skeleton and nervous system, and whatever the power is that keeps these things functioning. For now it's more about learning to fight and defend myself, building strength and cultivating energy, and increasing my odds of having a long and accomplished life. I think these are the goals of all styles of martial arts. To re-coin the phrase, there are many paths up the mountain, it does not matter if you are the horse pulling the cart or the cart, you both get there at about the same time.

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[Destrous9]

"To be able to hit or be hit requires a fair amount of internal development. Breath, tension and relaxation, focus, alignment, cardiovascular development, balance and coordination, and these are just the ones that can be seen on the surface."

Help a new student out. Is there anything more to the Internal arts than this? It seems to me all MA styles can be internalized by the student, if the student so desires.

Are there greater issues to internal training than the items Count pointed out? I am still trying to learn , so help me out a bit.

How about such aspects like:

1) Martial morality, and the philosophical view on life. Does this not affect the overall health and indirectly, Qi development?
2) Whole body health, and the interplay between mind, body and soul. Does whole body health not affect Qi development?

"There are 4 (Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, Liu He Ba Fa) generally known styles which emphasize Qi development more seriously than other styles, and are therefore considered Internal."--Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming

What about the concept of the unification of Heaven and Man? Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming states: "In order to achieve this goal of unification, you must understand the natural rules (Dao), and then modify your thinking, lifestyle, and activities in accordance with them. When you practice martial arts or QiGong, you must look for a place where the air is fresh. The food you eat must be nutritious. The time you practice must not upset natural Qi circulation. For example, practicing hard Qigong at noontime can make your body too Yang, and harm it. Only those who investigate the natural Dao and ponder carefully can bring about a harmonious unification between Heaven and Man."

Baguazhang Master Cheng Ting-Hua believed that "Those absorbing the freshness of the Heaven can be keen and those obtaining the spirit of the Earth can be clever. If one obtains both, then it is the spiritual achievement of Gong (i.e. Gongfu)." The implication is that natural Qi always influences your thinking and behavior. If Qi influences your thoughts and behaviors, and your thoughts and behaviors are not 'in tune' with the natural way, what does that say about your Qi, and your martial art? If your relationships with friends and family are horrible, is your Qi not in a weak state? ...)there are so many more real life examples...self-respect, respect for nature and life...etc).

Are there not greater issues and aspects to the Internal arts than mere breath control? Do not all aspects in life affect health and Qi development? Is not health and a unification with nature an important aspect to the proper development of Qi? Or in modern terms, does Qi hold a narrower definition? Is Qi just a tool for a martial art? ...or do Internal arts focus on much more deeply profound ideals than simply developing Qi so the art functions more efficiently? Do not all aspects of your life affect your Internal art?

Just throwing out a few thoughts here, and trying to learn from the experienced. Please remember that the above issues are meant for me to learn from, and not meant to say "I know".

"Deep down inside of all of us is the power to accomplish what we want to, if we'll just stop looking elsewhere."
Internal Arts Message Board

[This message was edited by Destrous9 on 04-22-01 at 12:25 PM.]

[Repulsive Monkey]

For internal cultivation there is no place what so ever for tension, this seeks only to reverse or impede Qi development. Internal martial arts are those which use Qi to improve health, apply martial techniques and develop an attunement to peoples Qi and then beyond that to even subtler aspects. I have never encountered (and I am very limited in my experiences so far!) external arts which deal in detail of cultivating listening,sticking,folding,rebound, following energies (and all the others) before and therefore feel that these things are particular (but not entirely exclusive) to internal arts. If you use tension to strike someone your art is external (or your internal art is ropey), if you can strike someone with earth force coming up through your body thn I would hazard the guess that your art is definetly internal. There is a difference. By the way to the comment about any student can make their art internal is erronneous. Internalisiation isn't just a matter of thinking how can I soften my punches but make them more efficient. Not by a long shot. You definitely need someone more experince to give you correct teaching or you spend your wholoe life kidding yourself you've got it

[count]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have never encountered (and I am very limited in my experiences so far!) external arts which deal in detail of cultivating listening, sticking, folding, rebound, following energies (and all the others) [/quote]
Have you ever seen wrestling? What energies does wrestling follow if not these? Is wrestling an internal art or an external one?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>For internal cultivation there is no place what so ever for tension, this seeks only to reverse or impede Qi development. [/quote]
A proper balance of tension and relaxation is nescessary in Chi Kung and in kung fu. Like a string on a guitar, if it is too loose it will be flat, too tight is will be sharp. How can you can hit someone with no tension whatsoever? It is like being hit with a limp noodle! In chi kung I have been taught and in bagua there is a constant flex and relax taking place. This does make chi flow stronger! I would be interested to learn which methods of chi kung do not follow this principle?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Internalisiation isn't just a matter of thinking how can I soften my punches but make them more efficient. Not by a long shot. You definitely need someone more experince to give you correct teaching or you spend your wholoe life kidding yourself you've got it
[/quote]

I agree with this statement. I'm not sure who it is directed at. I can find no statements here that imply striking is about being soft at all except for yours which states "If you use tension to strike someone your art is external". What am I missing here? Why would any fighter want to hit someone soft?

Enlightenment is not limited to those who seek it. Chi is not reserved for people who practice the so called "internal" arts. If a person learning any martial art does not internalize it at some point, it will not work. So I agree with Destrous that any MA student not only can but must internalize their style.e

[Repulsive Monkey]

Point a)


Wrestling does NOT use Tung JIn i.e. listening force where one listens to the quality of your opponents Qi. I guarantee that they certain do not use anything like Zhe De Jin i.e. folfing force either where they absorb their partners Qi then activate their Dantien's to U-bend it back out again all without tensing their muscles. I don't wish to be rude or harsh but again I will be honest and say that I have limits to my understanding and that is why I looked upon your response with interest and genuine adventure and not with rebuke.

Point b)

Maybe in Kung-fu, but in the 3 internal arts the need to relax at all times (and correctly NOT as I concur with you, like a wet noodle), is the only way to alloow earth force to arise and give someone the defensive Peng Jin needed, which coincidentally is the one force any internalist should develop before all others as it is a foundationa force which manifests in all others. Tension mixed in with it will have some effect, yes, and NO I am not suggesting that attacks should resemble wet noodles, what effect would that have?? apart making some laugh!. Internal arts attack by issuing Qi through the limbs which, if the alignment is correct, will act as a funnel to transport Qi explosively i.e. through Fa-Jing. Limbs are not tensed up at the point of contact or anything but all I can describe it as is "Dynamically relaxed". This means devoid of tension yet actively open (i.e. channels), as opposed to wet noodle syndrome which is devoid of tension and limply closed (i.e. channels closed).

Point c)

Again I re-iterate, internally speaking one does NOT strike with tension in order to attack, one strikes through issuing Qi into an opponent. In order to learn this properly it is easier if you have the guidance of an experienced teacher. One could internalise one's , say, Karate I suppose, but it would then cease to be Karate in the manner in which it is traditionally recognised.

Enlightenment is rarely found by accident if at all, but again is not necessarily granted to all seekers, but usually manifests to those who have been guided correctly too it.