the damage to martial arts in particular TMA

[Sifu Darkfist]

There is always alot of shots taken at fellow martial artists for no apparent reason on these forums. A whole lot of wasted energy on attempts at tearing down other schools without healthy debate practices. This is the problem with martial arts esp traditional. as long as there is lack of cooperation in Asian Based MArtial arts it will continue to diminish in importance.

Too bad few people notice this erosion. thus cannot stop it and those that bicker deserve it quite frankly

I notice this in the process of working with several different styles to accomplish simple get togethers or Tournaments. THis guy will only go here or that school never goes there etc. etc.
the gauranteed recipe for future disaster

[neilhytholt]

A lot of people seem to be on here to promote their particular program, and will attack those who don't agree with them.

As for the get-togethers, do you really want to parade your martial arts in front of somebody who will just rip it off and sell it to somebody?

It doesn't seem like it's attacking or not getting together that's the problem. The problem seems to be people who want to make money off teaching martial arts that's the problem.

As for attacking people who don't want to go to a get-together, or to their throwdown or whatever. Why would anybody attack somebody if they don't want to go see them? Because obviously they want another student who will pay them $ or something. Why else attack like that?

[Chan Da-Wei]

Yeah, a disease that does not discriminate….


Since 2001 I have been assisting Chin Woo New Zealand to establish networks and getting people from different arts together. Back then, my only MA experience was in Japanese Kempo since 1989.

Coming from a Japanese MA background where the only time that different MA schools talked to one another were at tournaments, I was keen and interested in promoting Chin Woo as a concept organization dedicated to promoting traditional MA of ALL styles (ie Not just Chinese based) . My conviction was based on first hand experience with the likes of HK Chin Woo etc where many different styles come together to train/ exchange etc.

Back then I was right into it. I wrote many articles, orgainised stuff etc….all on a voluntary basis. I remember once criticizing a particular teacher (actually a friend also) who kept refusing to participate in any Chin Woo event citing that his MA organisation was so BIG that belonging to Chin Woo was not necessary. (another story for another time).

However, two years ago (after preaching ‘the way’ for almost five years) I was told that there was a sigh of relief from one particular senior NZ Chin Woo executive when I myself started training TCMA. This person was not comfortable, in fact, did not want me going around town promoting Chin Woo as a place for traditional martial arts because I did not even train TCMA.

Chin Woo of course was founded back in 1910 to promote traditional Chinese martial arts and culture at time when China was quite fragmented… time shave since moved on and many Chin Woo organizations have all kinds of non Chinese MA based members involved. A recent demonstration and exchange I attended in Tianjin included San-da, TKD, Judo all under Tianjin Chin Woo.

Its hard enough bringing people from different styles together to train etc but when people in your own ororganisation can not themselves get over the differences, what hope is there.

Over the weekend I had a mate over to do some light training. He’s 6’5 and trains Wing Tsun. I’m 5’7 and train Hung Gar/ Hap Gar. I think we both got a lot out of the session, his straight line counters versus my angular based strikes were something that we don’t train in our respective classes.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Perhaps that particular senior NZ Chin Woo executive was relieved that you were training TCMA because Chin Woo was, and is a place that was meant to promote Chinese culture and repair the damage that had been done to the prestige and pride that China had lost as a nation around the time when Chin Woo was formed (sick man of Asia). This damage had been done primarily by western powers and the Japanese, who then proceeded to slaughter up to 20 million Chinese in the coming years.

So ya, I can see why people at Chin Woo would maybe frown upon someone exclusively promoting Japanese Kempo at a Chin Woo school. The Japanese have always had a very strong propaganda machine for their martial arts. Why promote them at Chin Woo?

[Chan Da-Wei]

Hmmm...Promoting Kempo??? Exclusively??? I don't think I said that.

I was promoting open exchange across all arts through the concept of Chin Woo One Family. Indeed, that was the mandate I was given by the Exec. I happened to be a Kempo MA at the time but Kempo never came into it. Nor should any one art for that matter.

It's a shame nothing was ever said back then. This guy was dead keen to have me parading round preaching Chin Woo, getting out there and bringing people in on the basis that we're one family (chinese and non chinese based arts). Heck, he was the editor who published many of my papers on the subject. I was a muppet.

You're right- turns out that he was relieved.

My gripe is that this guy (who was in a very influential position), was only too keen to have me out there bringing in people on the basis that (in NZ at least) Chin Woo is one family, regardless of art (Japanese, Chinese, whatever), but critical behind the scenes of me not being a Chinese stylist....

Here in NZ, we don't allow clubs to join Chin Woo. Only individuals, regardless of style. This is because we are focussed on bringing individuals together to share experiences, ideas and techniques. It works, we get good numbers and levels of particpation. 40 of us recently came back from China and included people from all backgrounds (ie non Chinese based styles).

[Sifu Darkfist]

The fact is, if the tournaments are reasonably priced than the students benefit far more than they pay. just being exposed to other arts or the atmosphere, and lets not forget the test of their skills. I got news for you guys that are trying to hide stuff. its already all over the internet ALL OVER THE INTERNET. Therefore i feel that TMA esp TCMA needs to and Should join together and set aside silly old differences in order to step and benefit the students.\

There really is not a ton of money in teaching as i am sure you are all aware, most of us do it for the love of the tradition and the art of physical combat, fitness, and a brotherhood that enables us to be here to disagree.

The sad thing is when people take each chance to slice the other individual instead of focusing on issues.

[neilhytholt]

I got news for you guys that are trying to hide stuff. its already all over the internet ALL OVER THE INTERNET.

Actually, I was talking to a Tong Bei guy recently about Tong Bei. Of the 5 different Tong Bei lineages that I've come across, only one (White Ape) really has any exposure on the Internet.

Therefore i feel that TMA esp TCMA needs to and Should join together and set aside silly old differences in order to step and benefit the students.\

Why? Even if you were to study all the martial arts clips on the Internet, as you put it, you would never learn it all in your lifetime.

I've done a lot of arguing that teachers should be more open, more open practices, etc., but realistically they don't want to do it. Why? Because they have nothing to gain from it. They don't gain anything by letting in outside students. They gain from selling their DVD program, or teaching by the month, whatever.

There really is not a ton of money in teaching as i am sure you are all aware

No, not really. There are tons of chain schools and schools where the sifus make millions per year.

The sad thing is when people take each chance to slice the other individual instead of focusing on issues.

I've been talking about more open practices on boards for a long time now, but schools that promote open practices usually have an agenda. That agenda usually is just more recruitment of students. If they have open sparring night or whatever it's because they'll try to get you into their school.

[PangQuan]

this is what i have been b!tching about in this http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...t=45817&page=2 thread all day long!

[neilhytholt]

this is what i have been b!tching about in this http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...t=45817&page=2 thread all day long!

Look, these threads are stupid. If you want to do MMA, then what's stopping you? If you want to do BJJ, then what's stopping you? If you want to do Sanshou, then what's stopping you?

*****ing and complaining about what other people are doing isn't going to get you anywhere, is it?

If you say that TMA people aren't playing with you, then what do you care? There's plenty of people doing boxing, wrestling, and whatnot for you to play with.

So why are people really upset about this?

a) Is it because they think their training is inadequate?
b) Is it because they're trying to get TMA students for their sanshou program?
c) Is it because they're trying to recruit people for their BJJ program?

Why are you caring about what other people are doing? I went around Seattle trying to find some more apps oriented TMA but bottomline is every teacher will require you to do their style. If they have partner practices or open sparring it's probably so they can recruit you to their school and you get a sales pitch.

[neilhytholt]

From what I've come across the reason TMA people don't practice more with each other is really simple.

It's mostly because of ego -- everybody I ever came across and tried to do partner practice with thought their style was better than anything else and they didn't want to trade off -- usually they wanted the other people to do their style.

For example, there's a xingyiquan practice group in Seattle I tried going to but he wanted everybody to do his version of Li Tai Liang's xingyiquan.

So of course I didn't go back, especially since he only had a couple of years of experience as a distance student no less, seeing his master maybe once or twice a year. A guy where I worked even went and wouldn't go anymore because he didn't want to train with somebody with that little experience.

And where it isn't ego, then why don't schools have more open practices? Probably because of money, right? They get their money by students paying per month. If some student came to your open practice and wiped the floor with all your blackbelts, then you'd probably lose students, right? Not very good for a school.

So if you want more open practice then I don't know what to say -- maybe you can go take MMA, right?

[PangQuan]

Why are you caring about what other people are doing? I went around Seattle trying to find some more apps oriented TMA but bottomline is every teacher will require you to do their style. If they have partner practices or open sparring it's probably so they can recruit you to their school and you get a sales pitch.

ding ding ding!

i have to care what all the other instructors are doing because i need instruction somewhere. and if what they are doing isnt what im looking for then i have to either settle for it/ move/ or train on my own. which i have been doing for a few months now, but its not that fun to beat the sh!t out of yourself

it just so happens that there arent any kungfu schools around me that fight. well i have one last place to check out and my fingers are crossed.

ill probably be going to judo though if this school doesnt pan out.

i guess its my fault for wanting to stick with my kungfu AND fight...if i go to the judo ill get plenty of time with a resisting opponent, but not using much kungfu for sure, if i go MMA well, i just might make that change.

I do have a few great MMA places around here.

but ya, your right. daily rant over!

[Merryprankster]

As for the get-togethers, do you really want to parade your martial arts in front of somebody who will just rip it off and sell it to somebody?

How the hell would this happen?

I mean, nobody would watch judo and then go teach it to their students. You can't. It's not possible to do this without practice.

[SevenStar]

I actually think judo gave me a better understanding of the kungfu I was doing.

[David Jamieson]

I started to understand chinese martial arts better when i got out of the environment I was learning it in and into an environment where i could apply it with peers.

I was always into ma anyway, but in almost every instance i found that schools were restrictive in actual application and practice or simply not in the least realistic in the approach. always to much on the side of caution which frequently rendered the martial arts virtually useless.

just my opinion, not necessarily shared by other.

[Golden Arms]

Agreed DJ. Take any martial art, train it with a boxing gym methodology and you will start to have something really good, even watered down MCDojo TKD can be pretty nasty when trained that way.