Old School Strongman training for Kung Fu.

[X_plosion]

Have you tried looking at the scanned books available on http://www.sandowplus.co.uk? It's pretty interesting reading, especially as some of the old time strongmen were boxers and wrestlers too.

Also do a google search for fulcrum fitness. They had a scan of an article where training with sandbags was featured. They've also got Jack Dempsey's Championship Fighting book, which is great if you're into "Old school" boxing.

[SevenStar]

Re; tendon strength

Well, I'm not a scientist, but I do know that both the old chinese and the old time strongmen both talked about tendon strength and considered it important. One of the ways the strongmen developed it was through lockouts and holds. One example is the farmers walk (or farmers 'stand'- can be done not moving.) Take a 75 lb. dumbell in each hand, totally straighten your arms out down at your sides, hold for as long as possible. What do you think/does it feel like this is developing? Same principle as 'iron board.'

ps- baby, I didn't do it! And I still wanna know who Brian is (I'll kill him! )

it is stabilizers. part of the problem with martial arts and strength training is that most MAists know absolutely nothing about strength training. as stated, tendons cannot produce power output.. the purpose of the farmer's walk isn't to develop this lockout ability you mentioned.

[SevenStar]

I think that type of training is good especially for clinch and wrestling type training but it is hard to balance that kind of stuff with regular practice and hard sparring sessions without getting too worn out. If you are going to strength train, that stuff is good but probably at a 6-8 rep scheme rather than all out for a couple seconds.
Personally I think the best stuff is circuits of weighted and bodyweighted exercises that push you to the limites of strength and endurance at the same time...not entirely max strength developing but very good for system as a whole.
I like to think that as kung fu guys we need to be very explosive and agile so that additional training for this is a good thing. Not saying traditional weight lifting is a bad thing, as I think everyone should deadlift to prevent their backs from getting weak, but odd shaped objects and thick-bar stuff, strongman steel beding, pushing cars, hitting a tire with a sledge-hammer, that is far more fun as well!

you can balance it out. I did it once per week, in addition to my other strength and ma training. the events are more speed and max strength based, so we never simply held a position, like dude was describing.

[phoenixrising]

actually, I think the farmer's walk is considered to be a walking lockout.

[Crosshandz]

it is stabilizers. part of the problem with martial arts and strength training is that most MAists know absolutely nothing about strength training. as stated, tendons cannot produce power output.. the purpose of the farmer's walk isn't to develop this lockout ability you mentioned.

Yes, this was one of Wang Xiangzhai's bones of contention when he criticised traditional terminology of training 'tendons and bones' and threw out the old jargon in the formative period of Yiquan. The training of 'tendons and bones' as you say is the training of the red muscle tissue which perform the stabilizing function in the body.

[_William_]

I think you are going down the wrong route if you are looking to 1800s strongmen for info, too much of it is clouded with superstitions with some exceptions. Strength was very much a fringe during that time. Training has advanced considerably since then, in terms of training systems, methodologys, technique, and understanding of the human body and adaptations to training.

The key is to dig deep... you won't find it in the average gym or in glossy bodybuilding mags. I agree that strongman training is of value... I disagree that it is necessary to look to the 1800s to learn how to implement it.

I think a lot of martial artists look at the typical gym rat... the typical kind you see with slouched shoulders, big arms, weak hips and legs, and dare I say it... unfunctional. And seeing this, many assume this is the necessary result of strength training. This is not so.

Look to the source. Look at how strength training is applied in an athletic setting, by elite athletes, and by coaches that actually know what they are doing...Look at how strength, power, speed, and movement efficiency is improved.

[Royal Dragon]

I think you are going down the wrong route if you are looking to 1800s strongmen for info, too much of it is clouded with superstitions with some exceptions.

Reply]
I'm not specifically talking about 1800's stuff (Although I'm not excluding it either), but more of the old ways of doing things that are not found in modern strength training gyms, but commonly seen in Strongman contests.


For example, dragging ship anchores, lifting wiskey barrels, moving big logs from place to place, bolder throwing, early frontier style log sawing, rolling frying pans up like news paper etc....

Strength was very much a fringe during that time. Training has advanced considerably since then, in terms of training systems, methodologys, technique, and understanding of the human body and adaptations to training.

Reply]
I am not so sure about that, I think a species that is 200,000 years old, like H0mo Sapiens would have pretty much figured it out buy the 1800's

The greatest advances have occured with the science of recoverytimes more than anything. The avaliablity of wide spread knowledge would be the other. Outside of that, is there anything we do now that is drastically different than in the distant past?

I think we just have more expensive, "high production manufactured" equipment....

Even the few primitave hunter gatherer tribes still around today (like the Zaowie trib in South America) wrestle with a spohistication on par with the average modern BJJ practitioner...and have for countless generations...

[Crosshandz]

I think you are going down the wrong route if you are looking to 1800s strongmen for info, too much of it is clouded with superstitions with some exceptions.

Reply]
I'm not specifically talking about 1800's stuff (Although I'm not excluding it either), but more of the old ways of doing things that are not found in modern strength training gyms, but commonly seen in Strongman contests.


For example, dragging ship anchores, lifting wiskey barrels, moving big logs from place to place, bolder throwing, early frontier style log sawing, rolling frying pans up like news paper etc....

Strength was very much a fringe during that time. Training has advanced considerably since then, in terms of training systems, methodologys, technique, and understanding of the human body and adaptations to training.

Reply]
I am not so sure about that, I think a species that is 200,000 years old, like H0mo Sapiens would have pretty much figured it out buy the 1800's

The greatest advances have occured with the science of recoverytimes more than anything. The avaliablity of wide spread knowledge would be the other. Outside of that, is there anything we do now that is drastically different than in the distant past?

I think we just have more expensive, "high production manufactured" equipment....

Even the few primitave hunter gatherer tribes still around today (like the Zaowie trib in South America) wrestle with a spohistication on par with the average modern BJJ practitioner...and have for countless generations...

I would agree with what you say about recovery times at least in the West. In the East however stabiliser strength is a mainstay. The vast majority of Eastern Martial Qigong methods are about teaching the body to utilise the power of the stabalisers with the mobilisers ( even though they may not express themselves in this way c.f. Zhan Zhuang foundation of internal martial arts by Karel Koskuba ). Whilst the Soviet government appears to have invested heavily in trying to understand stabilising muscle strength if what I have heard around Pavel Tsatsouline's methods is true.

Generally, I agree that many modern training tools develop dead strength in localised fast-twice muscle tissue rather than developing whole body strength that starts at the core and uses the slow-twich muscles to drive the movment of the body. I think the good old fashioned strongmen had a lot to say for themselves? (Anyone ever read up on early 20th century strongman Otto Arco's muscle control methods?) The functional strength developed by tossing and catching heavy sandbags or beer kegs will make a monster of you. Once I've developed my sensitivity to a high enough level that I know I'm using the right muscle tissue to drive my motions thats exactly the direction I'm headed in.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, I agree. I think the strongman crowd has the methods for superior functional strength. Much of the modern stuff is about isolation, and that is really proven to be ineficent for developing raw, useable strength.

I think that is why there is such a resurgence in the older methods, like Kettlebells, and old school strongman training.

[SevenStar]

I wouldn't call it old school. it is not like people ever stopped using these methods, there are just different crowds of athletes - bodybuilders, strength guys, endurance guys, general fitness guys, etc. allof these groups have benefitted from modern knowledge.

[stricker]

Even the few primitave hunter gatherer tribes still around today (like the Zaowie trib in South America) wrestle with a spohistication on par with the average modern BJJ practitioner...and have for countless generations...

have you got any sources/references for this? youtube clips?

cheers.

[Royal Dragon]

Nothing on Youtube, but the segment on the Zaowie was on discovery channel, and is shown from time to time.

I found it really interesting, they interviewed their Champoin wrestler, and showed some of thier matches.

It's interesting, but the Zaowie women wrestle too, right along with the guys.

[SevenStar]

Every civilization since the beginning of time has had some sort of folk wrestling. Naturally, there will be those who are very good at it. I am not sure how common submission is, though. Most of what I have seen of other cultures is wrestling, but not much submission.

[Royal Dragon]

They were doing joint locks wile on the ground to get the opponent to give up, or pinning them so they cannnot move.

Thier wrestling starts on the ground, with both opponents on all 4s facing eachother. They circle on all 4s very rapidy (Looks like two Badgers or Raccons going at it), untill one attacks and goes for the pin or locks a joint. The defender defends, counters and can turn the tables.

[BentMonk]

FYI Fulcrum Fitness is now Iron Body. The site is: www.iron-body.com The Jack Dempsey book is there, along with lots of other useful info pertaining to this discussion. Kettlebells are very effective. I have no doubt with the success of "300" old school training will be the new buzz thing. I've been doing KBs for almost five years, and the results are awesome.