Paul Lam and Joseph Cheng

[t_niehoff]

It's not even sparring. I don't suppose we know what the real context is? It's supposed to be on a film set with WSL against a stunt man/body double. It just looks like "playing about". I don't think we need to draw any more conclusions from it.

Of course it isn't "real" sparring (they're not really hitting each other, for example), but even in 'play sparring' you can get some idea of how a person moves, their body mechanics, their technique, etc. Is that clip a good example of how a good fighter moves? If a good fighter were trying to demo their fighting method for a movie (what the clip was), is this what you'd expect?

The trouble is unless someone has some decent fighting experience themselves, how can they even answer? All they can do is compare that to what good fighters are doing or go ask some good fighters to look at it and give their opinions.

In the final analysis I'm saying let's not build these guys up into super heroes based on stories, legends, demos, etc.

[CFT]

... even in 'play sparring' you can get some idea of how a person moves, their body mechanics, their technique, etc. Is that clip a good example of how a good fighter moves? If a good fighter were trying to demo their fighting method for a movie (what the clip was), is this what you'd expect?

The trouble is unless someone has some decent fighting experience themselves, how can they even answer? All they can do is compare that to what good fighters are doing or go ask some good fighters to look at it and give their opinions.

Well, I am a non-fighter, so you can disregard my comments if you wish. But since you have given me an opt-out (compare that to what good fighters are doing) then in this instance I would have to admit it doesn't compare well overall, but I think this is still down to the context.

1) I am not convinced that WSL was trying to demo his fighting method, so the intent is not there. He still looks like he is playing, and hence extending the photoshoot, rather than really trying to drop his "opponent."

2) I think he moves around his "opponent" well.

3) He does control his "opponent" at many points, but in places where they don't actually engage it looks a bit "slappy".

Can you tell me why you don't think much of the clip?

[gabe]

I've got a couple of knife scars on my hands (both required stitches) -- what does that prove?

Let me try to be clear: there have been people in WCK that were known as fighters, guys like Wong, Sum, Cheung, etc. I don't think anyone doubts these guys fought. There are even, in Wong's case, newspaper accounts of his challenge fights. There were also lots of people who claimed to fight.

But just because these people fought, and even won, doesn't mean they were all that good -- all it proves is that they were better than the people they fought. And if the people they fought were crap, how good did they need to be?

I think there is a tendency to idolize these guys as "fighting masters" but when we actually see footage from the legendary rooftop fights, we can see for ourselves that even the winning WCK fighter looks like crap. Sure the WCK guys won, but not because they were all that good, just that the other guy was worse. It was bad fighting bad; the less bad won!

Here's Wong "sparring"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwNUzW1M48w

Want to tell me what is particularly good about it?

So my point is that before we go off and draw conclusions based on stories or legends or whatever, let's see it for ourselves and base our conclusions on firsthand evidence.

Any clips of Robert Chu sparring? Rolling with grapplers? Full resistance sparring?

[stuart w]

In particular to chisauking and vajramusti, my sifu, Bob Stevenson, was Paul Lam's first student in London. As a collective we have been trying to locate Paul for a few years now without much success. After the London school closed and Paul went into the restaurant business full time, as stated in previous posts contact has been lost.

Any information you may have would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[chisauking]

Ho, ho, ho, I think they may have been abducted by aliens, Stuart! No trace of them anywhere.

For the Londoners, it seems as though it was only yesterday that Paul Lam, Joseph Cheung, Nigel Fan, Eddie Yoeh, Dereck Jones, Paul Elston, etc, was still around. Sadly, Jones & Fan is no longer with us, Elston's gone to Russia, and Lam & Cheung is missing without trace!

[anerlich]

what does that prove?

That you talk too much?

[Fresh]

I've got a couple of knife scars on my hands (both required stitches) -- what does that prove?

umm...maybe that you can't avoid confrontation?

[Edmund]

I've got a couple of knife scars on my hands (both required stitches) -- what does that prove?

You can't peel an orange?

[Wong]

Maybe Joseph Lee can help. He is classmate mr. Cheng

http://www.josephleewingchun.com/JosephLee.jsp

[t_niehoff]

You can't peel an orange?

Hey, dude, that orange was fiesty! If I hadn't been wearing my kung fu slippers, I would have never fallen, and never got cut! Apparently Wong had a similar experience. Why don't they tell us the reality of peeling oranges with a knife when we start WCK?