Gracie Beach streetfight

[Dragon Warrior]

Conditioning in learning to defend or evade multiple attackers. Such as learning to stack your opponents. Looking for opening or making an opening so that you can run. Learning on when to be offensive or defensive(which is BS cause I believe in a streetfight there is no defense. Just offense. You get defensive and you get hurt)

I also augment my MA with firearms training. Learning to use cover. Engaging multiple targets. I am fortunate enough to live in TX where we can legally carry a concealed firearm. So I make it a point, when finances permit, to take tactical firearms courses. And also shoot competitions on a frequent basis to keep up with reflexes.

Another thing I do, although not actively, is train in Arnis for my weapons training.

I am not claiming that I will be 100% effective in the street, but I am confident enough that I can at least evade or last long enough for the cops to show up.

I agree that pulling out a gun or a knife is the most effective way to defeat multiple attackers. So what is your point? Should my BJJ instructor teach me to use a gun? We are talking about hand to hand combat. If you dont think grappling is important in the street then you are naive.

If you want to learn how to run away from your opponents then go train with a football coach. If you want to learn how to fight effectively then you have to train some BJJ. It's just the truth, and it has been proven true over and over again.

[xcakid]

I agree that pulling out a gun or a knife is the most effective way to defeat multiple attackers. So what is your point? Should my BJJ instructor teach me to use a gun? We are talking about hand to hand combat. If you dont think grappling is important in the street then you are naive.

If you want to learn how to run away from your opponents then go train with a football coach. If you want to learn how to fight effectively then you have to train some BJJ. It's just the truth, and it has been proven true over and over again.

OK. Again I am not disputing the fact that BJJ is good to have. I am disputing the fact that in the video posted it is said that what was depicted is a "real streetfight" which is total BS. It was nothing more than a ring fight done in the streets.

Grappling is a double edged sword in the streets. It can work for or against you. If you are squaring off one guy and you trust that none of his buddies/friends will jump in and stab you in the back, sure it will be devatating. However, not knowing the people involved or how involved all others will be in the fight. Me personally, I would not grapple at all. I would poke eyes(which I have done in a fight before) or kick out a knee and flee the scene.

And yes, you should learn to use a gun. It is modern times afterall. One of my MA instructors once said, "A good martial artist always carries a gun" Been my mantra ever since

I say run, cause again, in all of the street fights I have witnessed and the few that I have been in. It becomes a free for all fight. I am not gonna stay there and try to go toe to toe with a bunch of people.

Yes grappling is an integral part of martials. But then again so is a good stand up. Practicing for the unforeseen(although difficult to do) and I do encourage working with firearms and bladed weapons. Even then you are not invincible, cause someone can just calmly walk up behind you at a coffee shop while you are reading a book and stab you or blow your head off.

Bottomline, no one martial art is good for a streetfight. Unlike what is stated in that video. The comment that this is a "real streetfight" and that BJJ is the best to handle a streetfight is total BS. A streetfight is not the same as ring fighting. Weapons are introduced in the streets. You may be fighting more than one person. You will have natural obstacle in the way. That is my point. The whole bravado of BJJ is good for any situation. Although admittedly it is a pretty good systems. But I think it does have its weaknesses.

Should someone say that about any other MA, EX: Shaolin KF is the best in streetfight or Kenpo is the best in streetfights, I would call BS as well.

Training in MA does prepare you for the situation. Some MA styles better than others. However, in all of the style I have been involved with over the years, I have not seen any that is infallable in a streetfight.

[TheSwedishChef]

How dare anyone question the awesome supremacy of Brazilian jiu jutsu. It can't be stopped. It's too real. Too street for any of you. Can't you see that if you critique it you're just showing your ignorance of true MA? How dare you people on a Chinese MA forum not bow to the South American perfection of Japanese arts that clearly needed improving. Guys like Moses Powell, Kazushi Sakuraba and Masahiko Kimura were and are creme-puff losers. Right?...Right?

[Dragon Warrior]

[QUOTE=xcakid;758625]OK. Again I am not disputing the fact that BJJ is good to have. I am disputing the fact that in the video posted it is said that what was depicted is a "real streetfight" which is total BS. It was nothing more than a ring fight done in the streets.

Grappling is a double edged sword in the streets. It can work for or against you. If you are squaring off one guy and you trust that none of his buddies/friends will jump in and stab you in the back, sure it will be devatating. However, not knowing the people involved or how involved all others will be in the fight. Me personally, I would not grapple at all. I would poke eyes(which I have done in a fight before) or kick out a knee and flee the scene.

QUOTE]

I dont know if you know this, but the best way to keep a fight standing up is to learn grappling. Also, the best way to learn to stand up when on the ground is also through grappling.

What if your eye poke misses or doesnt stop the attack. Same with the kick to the knee. What if someone tackles you and sticks his finger in your eyes. Or takes out his knife when he has you mounted and helpless.

The fight in that video is a challenge match. Hugo Duarte challenged Rickson and Rickson accepted. It's a REAL streetfight where no one jumped in. Do you realize how bad you would get your ass kicked in a street fight with Rickson Gracie.

[Adventure427]

Definition of a street fight...in my opinion...is a fight without rules. That could have been a real fight...could have been staged, who knows. I see all the valid points you're making though. I grapple and strike.....i would grapple one on one, and strike vs. multiple, or if theres others around who may jump in.

In some street fights, it turns into a free for all, like you said, and sometimes they dont. I've seen alot that dont. If its a confrontation between two people and they go at it, sometimes people will just watch they're buddy take an L. Sometimes its not like that. It also depends on where you live. Big cities, theres usually more of a group mentality, but even alot of NYC kids i know threw down 1 on 1 LOTS of times.

Theres a difference between a street fight and a mugging, or a rape, or somebody getting jumped. In my opinion atleast. So, i would say the video COULD still be a real 'street fight', its just that nobody else jumped in.

[TheSwedishChef]

What you described, Dragon Warrior is a " challenge match" as you said, between two grapplers on the beach. That's not a street fight. Rickson's a professional fighter. One would hope he would do decently in any fight.

And let's not lose sight of one thing. Grappling is so frigging boring to watch. I'd rather watch bowling or an action packed Curling tourney.

[Dragon Warrior]

What you described, Dragon Warrior is a " challenge match" as you said, between two grapplers on the beach. That's not a street fight. Rickson's a professional fighter. One would hope he would do decently in any fight.

And let's not lose sight of one thing. Grappling is so frigging boring to watch. I'd rather watch bowling or an action packed Curling tourney.

you are obviously totally ignorant about grappling, and therefore, I cant take your opinion in this discussion seriously.

That fight was a "street fight." The fact that both guys are grapplers and they are on the beach doesnt take away the fact that they are fighting without rules a ring and a ref.

[Mr Punch]

And let's not lose sight of one thing. Grappling is so frigging boring to watch.

You say that like it's a fact. OIt's only because you don't know what the hell you're looking for. I find grappling interesting to watch... depending of course on who and what they are doing.

That fight was a "street fight." The fact that both guys are grapplers and they are on the beach doesnt take away the fact that they are fighting without rules a ring and a ref.

Everybody's point is, mine included, that it was a squared off challenge between two pro-fighters on a nice soft surface, and worlds apart from self-defence situations where someone sitting next to you tries to shove a glass in your face with no warning. That's not to diss them or the art, just saying... it's no ****ing street fight.

[PangQuan]

I find grappling interesting to watch... depending of course on who and what they are doing.

yep, i think this here is the key factor in how entertaining grappling is to watch.

not being a grappler myself, its been fun watching over the past many years. after a while, even being a non grappler, you start to notice whats a difficult maneuver and when someone just pulled a giant pimp move.

grappling can be really exciting when you get a couple guys who are pretty evenly matched but still constantly counter each other and dominance shifts regularly.

of course now days, generally speaking, there is usually striking thrown in to the grappling game at one point or another. that additional element changes things a lot.

[xcakid]

I dont know if you know this, but the best way to keep a fight standing up is to learn grappling. Also, the best way to learn to stand up when on the ground is also through grappling.

What if your eye poke misses or doesnt stop the attack. Same with the kick to the knee. What if someone tackles you and sticks his finger in your eyes. Or takes out his knife when he has you mounted and helpless.

The fight in that video is a challenge match. Hugo Duarte challenged Rickson and Rickson accepted. It's a REAL streetfight where no one jumped in. Do you realize how bad you would get your ass kicked in a street fight with Rickson Gracie.

Challenge match = streetfight. Don't think so. Specially in Brazil!! Most of the streetfights out there end up in a stabbing or shooting. All that video was, is a ring style fight done outdoors. I guess I could post videos and cases upon cases of real streetfights and you still won't get it. A streetfight is unpredictable. That is the only constant.

So let me ask you this, what would've Gracie done had that mob jumped in and it became a melee? He would've done what any MA would've done. Fight for his life and get his a$$ kicked.

As for your other points, I would have to agree to a certain extent. There has to be a good balance. A yin and yang of sorts. Stand up and grappling. Being comfortable with both. Admittedly my training has been a bit skewed 60% stand up MA, 35% firearms and weapons(arnis), 5% ground.

Let me tell you exactly my background so that you can understand where I am coming from and what I am basing my streetfight knowledge and expereince:

The reason I got into MA is due to my father. I came home one day all beat up cause of a streetfight that turned into a melee between my group of friends and another group. He took me to a MA school to study after that. While in college, I was a major club go'er. As you may or may not know, there are quite a few parking lot fights at clubs. I have seen and expereinced large group melees. As well as 2/3/4/5+ on one fights(basically some guy getting jumped after the club closed). Lots of fights where when the other start to lose, his buddies jump on the guy winning while he was busy focused on pummeling his opponent. Or starts taking cheap shots while they are engaged in a "wrestling" match. FFWD to my military years. In the military I continued to take MA. Also it was nothing but a big party. Lots of bar hoping and getting drunk. Been witnessed to a lot of bar fights and been in a handfull. One of which landed me in jail for assualt, later dropped. While in Mexico. I also witnessed a bar fight that was one on one. However, once the bouncers broke it up, a group of the bouncers took the two "around back" and the ambulance was called later. I have also witnessed a stabbing while at a house party where a guy just walked up to the dude, decked him and stabbed him, then ran out the door. As well as someone being jumped by a group(which I believe I posted on this thread). I have also been at a house during a scuffle outside and the drive by that happened afterwards. Let me just add that no I am not a badass claiming I win a lot of streetfights. Matter of fact more often than not I am the one getting my a$$ kicked. That is why I don't put myself in those situation any longer. My experience taught me how to recognize and avoid those situations.

That my friend is the reality of a streetfight. NOT a challenege match on the beach where everyone gives room the fighters. MA training can only take you so far in a REAL streetfight. The rest is up to you and your survival instinct. Saying one MA style is better than the other is total BS!! In certain aspects sure one MA is better than the other, but in other aspects, it can be a hinderance on the street.

[rogue]

That fight was a "street fight." The fact that both guys are grapplers and they are on the beach doesnt take away the fact that they are fighting without rules a ring and a ref.

No rules? It was a classic gentleman's duel right down to the slap in the face and removing of the shirts. Doesn't take away from their abilities, but it's far from being no rules.

[kal]

The rules stated was that the first person to admit that joojeetsu still reigns was the loser.

[TheSwedishChef]

you are obviously totally ignorant about grappling, and therefore, I cant take your opinion in this discussion seriously.

That fight was a "street fight." The fact that both guys are grapplers and they are on the beach doesnt take away the fact that they are fighting without rules a ring and a ref.

I'm ignorant? You think a match on a soft surface with loads of spectators between two wrestlers is a street fight. In a street fight people don't back up and take their shirts off. That's laughable. This could have easily happened exactly the same way in the ring. And no ref? There's 100 refs standing around them. And no ring just means no one's face gets scraped off. A street fight could have any end. Someone could pull a weapon. Other people could jump in. There could be biting, tearing, groin stomping etc.

Wait now I forget, who's ignorant?

[TheSwedishChef]

You say that like it's a fact. OIt's only because you don't know what the hell you're looking for. -Mr. Punch


Nope. It's boring. Sorry.

[larryc]

The most consistent way to win most street fights is to hit VERY hard and to land the first hard shot. This is especially true if you are fighting multiple attackers.

The one-punch or one-kick knockout is the best way. Multiple strikes work if necessary, but the extra few seconds gives your opponent or his friends a better chance at you. Choking someone out, damaging their limbs, or KO'ing them with a throw or takedown is fine if you can do it but, like multiple strikes, they give your opponent or his friends a better chance to turn the tables on you compared to you landing the one-shot KO.

Most people do not properly train to develop this ability. I will share my experience. I have been a black belt in Shorin-Ryu karate since 1981, 9 years of Tai Chi, I fought in a lot of point tournaments, boxing and kick boxing, a few real fights, and recently had a little Judo training.

MOST karate and kung fu stylists I've encountered in 33 years of training and competing unfortunately do most of their kicking and punching into the air and, thus, totally lack knock-out power. They are likely to lose a street fight to a wrestler, boxer, BJJ, or judo guy even if they score point-sparring-type "points" during the fight. It happend to me with a Judo guy- luckily when I was a young kid and I learned from it. Most wrestling, boxing, BJJ and Judo training, unlike many schools' karate and kung fu training, has the practitioner repetitiously and regularly practicing techniques full strength and all out. Obviously, they are much better rehearsed for executing the moves with full power and speed and against an opponent trying to defend. The karate/kung fu practioner has little or no rehearsal time in executing moves with full power and speed against an opponent trying to defend.

Some karate/kung fu practitioners think the answer is to occasionally spar full or heavy contact, and to occasionally do heavy bag or iron palm- but only for a small portion of the class. These measures help and they are better than doing nothing, but they fall far short of getting you where you need to be to develop one-punch/ one-kick KO power.

You need to develop: good form for power- pay attention to stances and using hips and entire body for power; perfect aim (i.e., a glancing blow will miss the sweet spot and sometimes you lose your only opportunity); speed; body strength- especially explosive strength in full torso and legs (do deadlifts). You cannot neglect any one of these aspects in your training. It needs to be DAILY.

A word about aim: makiwara or similar open-hand striking targets are key. I am not talking about buying a little pad or wooden block from a magazine and tapping it. I am talking about anchoring something in the ground or to a tree or wall so that you can hit it as hard as you can. A heavy bag is better than nothing but it does not force you to contact and transmit force through a single knuckle, knife hand edge etc since your hand will sink into a heavy bag. Bag gloves are out of the question because they do not force you to develop the accuracy to use the small, correct part of your hand/foot only. You may have seen a street fight or a UFC fight where a punch appears to make contact, even draw blood, but does not end the fight. That's because you have to hit right on the target (like the sweet spot in golf or baseball) and hit with the correct part (i.e., a single knuckle or whatever the strike calls for).

Mount several pads on your makiwara - some low. Then practice, as hard and as fast as you can, kicking knee-level. A person's knee is very small and if you miss the target he will still get you. You have one opportunity and do not want to miss. Test yourself-- try kicking a small, low mounted makiwara target as hard and as fast as you can. You may not think you'll miss, but many of you will miss and maybe hurt your foot or shin bone. And it must be as HARD as you can. Then think to yourself that if you cannot even aim well enough to hit a stationary makiwara pad then how do you expect to defend yourself with a knee-kick against a moving opponent. If you think a knee-kick is easy and you can simply use one in a street fight--- think again: knee-kicks are allowed in UFC-- how many times have you seen one used to end a fight? on the first try?

Look at this example - even spreading a single knuckle punch to three knuckles reduces the force per knuckle to 1/3 of its force. You make it softer on the opponent's head or whatever part you are hitting. It's much worse if you accidentally hit with part knuckles-part fingers because you have now spread your force over a surface area of your hand 10 times or more greater then the single knuckle. If you do not practice hitting a small target area (i.e., like a small marking on a makiwara) with the proper part of your bare hand, and with your hardest effort--- then what makes you think you will be able to do it in a street fight? And with 100% consistency? This is the single most neglected aspect of karate and kung fu as practiced by many in the U.S. You need to do it every day-- and not for 5 minutes of your one-hour class.

Judo, BJJ, boxing, wrestling-- they spend significant amounts of time going all-out, full strength in practicing their techniques against resistance (i.e., an opponent). Typical karate and kung fu schools in the U.S. are the opposite-- they spend zero or almost zero amounts of time executing their techniques all out against resistance. Sure, you cannot punch and kick your training partner - you would hurt him or her- so the next best thing is a makiwara or a similar device. A heavy bag isn't too bad if you get a really hard one that does not indent easily-- still not right but much better than soft.

Sparring is very important and you must make hard contact. To avoid injury so you can do it often, use TKD chest guards, and NO pads (to develop aim), and do not allow shots to the head (for safety). Occasionally, put on head gear (w/ face mask) and allow head shots. And allow throws, take downs, submission holds. No arm, shin, forearm or any other pads should be allowed since you will develop habits that rely on the pad to protect your shin, forearm when, in a real fight, you won't have the pad.

Develop super powerful and well-aimed kicks by hitting makiwara or heavy bag as hard as you possibly can- don't do "flicking" point sparring kicks in the air or at a bag like you are training for a point tournament.

For strength--unless you are training in Olympic style power lifting, keep it simple: 6 days per week-- do 10 slow hand stand pushups (full range); 10 pull ups, 10 one-legged knee bends on each leg with other leg full raised in the air; back bridges(hands not neck bridge) full one-minute or more. Don't miss any days--ever.

Last -- find a BJJ, Judo, wrestling teacher and do a little training. It does not have to replace your karate or kung fu, but it truly will be helpful to you in defending against their style. You will also learn techniques that you will want to use.

Train hard.