Any older branches of Wing Chun?

[kal]

All the branches of Wing Chun that are popular today seem to come from Yip Man e.g. Leung Ting, William Cheung, Yip Chun etc.

But what about any branches that came from further back?

What became of the other students of Chan Wah Shun for example? Or the other students of Leung Yee Tai? Have their branches of Wing Chun also survived?

[Shadow_warrior8]

Hi,
you can check wingchunkuen.com
Rene has alot of good information there.

[Paul T England]

In Foshan (Fatsan) Jing Mo association 13 styles of wing chun have been recorded. Some from Ip Man, Chan Wah Soon, Leung Jan and others from different sources such as Pao Fai Lien.

Several problems exist when looking at the different styles;

1) It is impossible to authenticate the history and lineage. Even within Ip Man system, did Leung Jan really teach Chan Wah Soon, did Leung Bik exist?

2) Many styles are mixed and its difficult to say what is wing chun and what is not? As a base art many of the people from that area of china will have done a family stlye as a child, usually a type of hung kuen.

Paul

[VingDragon]

here is another source of informations - check this out:

http://wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php

[Shadow_warrior8]

Brian's site is one of the best there is. Hours of endless reading and study.

[reneritchie]

Thanks for the plug!

Here a more specific subsite as one example:

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/

[byond1]

Thanks for the positive feedback my friends.

The site is a collective effort, who without my WCK brothers, wouldnt exist.

Rene also made huge contributions, by allowing us to use many of his articles, that he has collected over the years. And his research work in the 90s, layed the ground work for us.

We still havent officially debuted, as the work involved is insane~ Hopefully one day soon~~

B

[reneritchie]

Now I feel old

[chusauli]

Excellent work and categorization Brian!

I particularly like the way the systems are categorized (i.e. Post Modern Period System’s / Hybrid / 1960′s-current) - it makes perfect sense.

[byond1]

Hi Brothers,

I think everyone will really enjoy the material. And i really have to thank EVERYONE, who has helped. My partner that runs our sister sites, Everything WC and WCarchives, has been a huge support structure for me, and has been able to fill in my lack of "back end" computer / Web skills. He also uses his WCK in NHB, and is one of the guys helping to put WCKs name, back onto peoples tongues, as something to respect.

Anyone interested in contributing articles representing their system, feel free to email me. We dont make value judgments on any material or lineage. This is a piece of work for everyone in the community, and we hope to represent everyone, as best as we can, the way they want.

To get peoples mouths watering:

*We are working on the largest Glossary ever, for the WCK system, as well as a Time line!

*We have information supplied, for the first time, by the Chinese inheritors of the Tang and Chu Chong Man Families, setting the record straight, from their perspective, on what is the family system, vs. the Dai Duk Lan system, vs. What is sold in the west as "Chi Shim Weng Chun". A DVD documentary is in the works also.
Derek is great Kung Fu brother and his help has been incredible in bringing this information to the public

*We have, for the first time in the west, a small exposure to the Lo Kwai family system. The gem has remained hidden from even most Chinese, and is about as tight lipped as the Fung Family of Kulo Village. In fact in their lineage chart, there is only 1 non family member to learn the art. Currently we are working on getting some photo sequences up and more detailed information. This is one reason there has been a hold up on the Debut of the Pedia, as i want this in place for everyones enjoyment.

This will blow some minds, as they preserve their system in 1 single form, very similar to Cho Gar Siu Lien Tau. They also contain material that is only found in Cho Gar, YKS, and Kulo. This material is missing from most Modern WCK branchs, and is how we authenticated the Lo Kwai Branch. The common denominators of these older branchs is what we will be comparing to the Weng Chun County White Crane, when we start work on the book.

*We are also working on a very detailed article on Cho family, which is going to set the record straight on many levels and help clairify to the west, what the art of Poon Yu village is really like, as well as the traditions preserved by Cho On family. This is important due to limited exposure in the west, for Cho Gar.

Of cource Big Brother Eric Ling has done ALOT for WCK, just in the last month, and im amazed at his "Big Picture" Vision. I have enough trouble wrestling with WCK and White Crane, let alone 75 differant Kung Fu styles!!!~ LOL

*One of the best articles on TWC, i have ever read, is a proud addition to our article section. I have to thank Victor Sifu, for his time and patience. I knew by his clear method of communicating, he would create something special, and he really did. Even surpasing my expectations

*We also have a new article on Fut Sau WCK that Mike did a great job on.

*New Information on Hei Ban Wing Chun and the most indepth article yet, is in the works

In the future, we have a detailed article on the Fung Family WCK tradition. A DVD will be in the works as well. We are going to share for the first time with the west, the first basic level training of the closed door tradition.

We have also uncovered another branch of Kulo, that preserves Longer Linked San Sik forms, and may prove to be of great interest to our community.

Lee Shing family has been very great and are going to be working on new articles, with focus on the Kulo material they preserve.

And something else im very very excited about is im working on several articles with a direct student of Sum Nung, on Yuen Kay Shan WCK. This has a special place in my heart, and i hope to be able to add something, to all of the great information Rene and Robert have shared in the past, with the community. This is very specificaly on "Application" - and how to use your WCK, in this modern world we live in, while remaining within the WCK Criterion. Im not writing it though, im ...using a interview format, and simply dictating, what the Sifu relates to me.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RR - well, you are getting up there LOL - but so am i. My birthday, my Fiances, and her sons all fell in the first week of May!! Triple Bull's!!!!
Your work has special meaning to me, as your efforts first introduced me to YKS WCK, which has impacted my life and understanding greatly.

I have always hoped you would Author YKS part 2, introducing perhaps CK or the Jong methods of Ngo Sifu. Ng Lo Kay is one of the best in our family, IMO, and his structure looks soooo much like Sigung. I hope to see more of him in the future.

Your work set the standard, IMO. You share - you open up things - but do it , in a way, that - doesnt....give away the pearls. I think this is the best way. Help introduce people, and than if the have an interest, they can formaly study under a Sifu. Im modeling all of my work on this method.

Robert - Thanks. Im a musician, and i think my dichotomy was formulated from that influence.
Thank you for all your work as well. You, RR, and Marty did alot to open up the community. I hope we can keep the doors opening wider.

Vic - yes. I agree. The WCpedia will exemplifiy "Wing Chun" For ever growing and always renewing. There are a few things i want to complete though. The Cho Gar and Lo Kwai information is very important to me and the community. I have hopes of having this in place. Im also reworking some of the Bios for the Ancestors. We are begining the reformating of everything, and getting all the pictures up over the next 2 weeks. So the debut is getting very very close. Spring is here!!!

I have hopes to really expand the Kuen Kuit section. So any one intrested in contributing, email me at - deadletter6@yahoo.com. I also have hopes of putting up White Crane Kuen Kuit for comparison.

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The Future??? After the WCpedia debuts, WCarchives, EverythingWC, and the WCfightclub have a new Sister being born. Its the official "Ancestral Wing Chun Kuen Research Institute" web site and forum (AWCKRI for short). The AWCKRI is independent of the other sites. As the WCpedia is neutral, the AWCKRI will tackle head on, what we feel is or isnt WCK, as well as the historical roots and development of the system.We begin work on our Book- that includes :

1) A more likely- than not, recontruction of Ban Chung Red boat WCK using YKS, Kulo , Lo Kwai, Mai Gai Wong, Cho Gar, and Tang Gar. Pulling all the common denominators, discarding the unique lineage inflections.

2) Compare and contrasting the Ban Chung Red Boat WCK to Weng Chun County White Crane via technical writting, Kuen Kuit and photo sequences.

Im going to H.K in October, as Lee Sifu has agreed to meet with me, share our kung fu and discuss him working on the book with us. This is incredible as Lee Sifu coauthored one of the first books on White Crane, and wrote an article years ago comparing WCK to White Crane. I also have hopes of Sui Sifu working with us, and would "round out" the White Crane examples, by showing the older harder ging method.

This will hopefully prove once and for all, that WCK, that is from the Opera troupes, is a child of the white crane and snake.

3) Using the dichotomy system, Robert mentioned, we plan on , via Photo sequencing show the stages of WCKs evolution, from Red Boat 1850s all the way down to USA WCK 1960s. This is going to blow minds and doors!! And im sure will stir up a "Spot of balor". Also included in this, is the Debunking of the idea of a "Weng Chun" system that predated the "Wing Chun" system, and very plainly showing there was only 1 system, called WCK, that evolved due to each student that learned it, and what arts they already knew, as well as their particular focus as well as that of their teacher.

The work as a whole hopes to define what Opera Troupe 1850s Wing CHun Kuen was, where it came from, and how it evolved, over the years, into several differant modern WCK branchs. This will also show there is no "Oldest" WCK currently. There are only several differant systems that preserve older material, and they all need to be used to unlock the truth.

I will keep everyone posted over the next few weeks!!~

Brian

[Vajramusti]

You have taken ona huge task. FWIW-Some info in passing on the site.

1. Augustine Fong has had the largest glossary of terms to date and it is on his site.

2. While Augustine Fong is the best known disciple of Ho kam Ming- there are quite a few other good wing chunfolks that have learned from master Ho. Some have had winning recirds in full contact fighting including MT opponents- these insclude Tam Kam Hinh, Lui Ming Fai and Chen Tinh Yan of Macao

3.Among Fong students- Daniel Chan and Dan Maricich are very much my sihings.
Also on the Fong site there are other very good bros. and sisters listed including Tony Frighetti, Carina Cirrincione and Raoul Van Iotti.

back to standard programming, with good wishes

joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

You have taken ona huge task. FWIW-Some info in passing on the site.

1. Augustine Fong has had the largest glossary of terms to date and it is on his site.

2. While Augustine Fong is the best known sifu to come from the Ho kam Ming- lineage,there are quite a few other good wing chunfolks that have learned from master Ho. Some have had winning records in full contact fighting including MT opponents- these insclude Tam Kam Hinh, Lui Ming Fai and Chen Tinh Yan of Macao

3.Among Fong students- Daniel Chan and Dan Maricich are very much my sihings.
Also on the Fong site there are other very good bros. and sisters listed including Tony Frighetti, Carina Cirrincione and Raoul Van Iotti.

back to standard programming, with good wishes

joy chaudhuri

[Shadow_warrior8]

Its a glorious time for wingchun and the charge is led by many generals like yourself, Bro eric and the others you mentioned who have lit the way for years.
A great site!!! Will be one of the greatest source of WCK info, if not the greatest already.
Alot of work done on your part Bro, thumbs up!!!!
Dont think anywhere can we find info like that so readily available. Helps to find and recognise the flavour of the wingchun(like noodles, chicken or thai flavour...heh heh)
Hongkong in Oct huh? Maybe I can meet ya there for yum cha....its only 3 hrs flight from here.
Drooling for your updates already.....slurp slurp......crane and snake flavour heh heh.......

P/s Oh Bro, pls remember to edit the info as spoken. As I have said all along and might as well put it on record, I have never said I speak for anyone or any lineage. Just myself. Like the chinese say, not worth one mention. Just a small fry who learnt abit from some sifus who were gracious enough to share to me their art.
Wouldnt want to further cause any misunderstandings or misinterpretations.

[Vajramusti]

PS- Brian -in addition to glossary=dictionary of terms (on Fong site)..


Augustine Fong back around 1980 published a bunch of books- now out of print.
One key one was on wing chun principles and concepts whose content shows up in other places and even books from time to time. It has the largest list of kuen kuit and principles in the forms in the Ip man lines plus discussion of external and internal elements in wing chun .Dan Lucas's old site used to have the kuen kuit from that book.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

*We are also working on a very detailed article on Cho family, which is going to set the record straight on many levels and help clairify to the west, what the art of Poon Yu village is really like, as well as the traditions preserved by Cho On family. This is important due to limited exposure in the west, for Cho Gar.

I will keep everyone posted over the next few weeks!!~

Brian

Brian,


Excellent!

After years of both Robert and Rene's continous big effort helping Yik Kam and Cho family lineage, now the story continous on.. Excellent. and Keep up with the good work.

Also, here I would like to again announce that Sifu Robert Chu has indeed inherit the Yik kam set and Kuen Kuit which is directly transmitted down from Yik Kam, Cho Soon, Cho Dak-Shing/Sam Chan, Cho On, Cho Hong Choy, and myself.






To everyone who is interested in Yik Kam lineage and Cho family art.



I would like to share with you the following points so that everyone will contribute an excellent part of the effort to preserve the art if you decide to do research and write about the family.




1, Proper Generation title with a clear path.

One thing I would like to advise to all the Cho family researchers is on the lineage family tree generation position.

For example, my sifu Late Cho Hung -Choy, learn first from Cho On, then Cho Chuen, then Sam Chan. In the family Tree, Cho Hung-Choy is always under Cho On even he is dotted line with Sam Chan which is his sigung generation. In Cho Hung-Choy's writting that is the way he set himself.

We would like to avoid jumping generation, Say, a person learn from the sifu, then go learn from the sigung or great sigung, this person in Chinese tradition is not going to be placement under the sigung or great sigung. place oneself under the sigung generation or under the great sigung generation is a violation of chinese tradition, the mandarin tearm is Luan Loon or chaos in generation.

As a chinese this is serious stuffs for Chinese Tradition. I hope this is taken seriously while coming up with family tree. Dotted line could be as much as possible, however, solid line must only be one with the original sifu of the family.




2, Clarity about Yik Kam art and Cho family art and localized evolution, where and WHen.

Yik Kam art is recorded and transmitted with the Set, Kuen Kuit, and specfic transmission of uniqueness. as for Cho family art, start from the time of my sijo Cho Dak-Shing, localize Evolution begung in a large scale. Thus, if one compare Sam Chan's art and Cho family art there are differences. Eventhought Sam Chan and Cho Dak-Shing are from the same generation. and infact, some 40 years ago these variantion was discussed in Penang Malaysia among the elderly.


So, it is very important to be clear about the type of evolution and where and when. even in the same location, art evolve with time. knowing or un knowingly.




3, The Standard is setted by the ancestors, family tree position for the art and family tree position for the relationship.

Yik Kam art is based on an Internal art platform.

From Yik Kam to Cho Soon, Cho Dak-Sing, Cho On, to Cho Hong-Choy, for 5 generation, we kow via the writting of Yik Kam kuen kuit (be it from Sam Chan side or Cho family side ) and Cho Hong Choy's personal letter, we know via evident, Internal is a core of thier SLT. IE: bea ble to sinking Zhen Qi to Dan Dien is a key point.

Thus, ancestors' standard , must not be discount or negotiate.

that is the standard setted by the Yik Kam and Cho ancestors. Even if the practitioners is not aware of or could not reach that advance state. The ancestors, standard must not be comprimise.

Yes, even in the begining level in order to enter the SLT of Yik Kam, there is something called the 5th Stanza which is specificly dealing with sinking Qi to Dan Dian and handling the Du Madirian and also the Spine. That is the practice of the ancestors. either one has it or not, that must not be discount or compremise.


on an advance level, one will attain the activation of the 8 special medrians, there and only there on would start to know what is it mean by " spontaneously let the nature take its corse" teaching. and that today we could relate to be able to alter state to the alpha wave state of the EEG at will.

There are level and levels of attainment in Yik Kam's SLT. Thus, this key is very important to make alive what it is rather then what one think it is.

and it is a factual reality that without the True transmission of the lineage from sifu to student, one simply dont know and could not imagine what it is about. and if one doesnt know how could one teach? and what could one passed to the next generation?

Thus, that goes back to the position in the generation, does one have this transmission? if not one might not even belong to the family tree for the art, but belong's to the family tree for the relationship. and both are non negotiable.



In general, there are 3 stages in the training, the first is the activation of the diaphramatic breathing or the smooth flow of the Ren Medirian, the second is the activation of the Du medirian, where the Dan Dien is activate, the spine is handling properly. in this state, one be able to know what " Yee lead Qi, Qi transport physical' means. The third state is the return to the spontaneous, in this state one be able to sense the action and response to internal/external action spontaneous and naturally. as it said, Comes accept, Goes return, let go and thrust forward....using silence to handle action.

this is a general path of from entering the door to advance. and it cannot be negotiate. otherwise, one could not have the kung fu. One must know clearly where one is since that give the direction of one's training.



4, well define uniqueness

The uniqueness of Yik Kam and Cho family art must be clearly define and specified since a lineage is not about a mixing or a collection of scatering STuffs. But a unique way.


So, nope, not everyone can be an expert or pioneer unless one have the transmission, know the art, and have in depth insight of the art. and that is non negotiable. it is just a facture reality.



We all need to be really carefull so that we are helping to preserve the art, thus, I hope with the above 4 points which I have learned in the past, we could all success with ease with our research.


Best Regards
Hendrik