Any older branches of Wing Chun?

[byond1]

Thanks for sharing Doc.

Tom Kagan also knows alot about the Knife sets that Moy Sigugn passed down. I guess there were several differant versions of the set he knew. Sunny Tangs book on the Bot Jam Tao, have 1 version.

Something interesting Vic shared - was the footage, Moy yat played for him of the knives, and if i remember correctly he turned off the video, at somepoint , possibly hiding the Sam Gwok Mah footwork. Perhaps Vic can retell the story!!~

And now that I think of it, isnt Sunny tang supposed to be a H.K student of Moy Yat as well?

B

[Jim Roselando]

Vic/Tom,


Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun
"Lee Shan originally trained for a period of time under Moy Yat in Hong Kong. Moy Yat relocated to USA and Lee Shan studied a harder style (maybe Hung Gar if memory is correct) when he left. I believe it was not that long but eventually Lee Shan relocated to the USA and continued/finished his training with Moy Yat."


NOT TRUE AT ALL. I don't know who started that story - but it's a total fabrication. Douglas Lee (Lee Moy Shan) never met Moy Yat until November, 1973...in Brooklyn, NY.


Jim,

Victor is correct about Douglas.

As an aside, I do find it interesting the story is actually of Henry Moy's history.


Hello,


The story I mention was the story the LMS club in Central Sq would promote. David Robinson was LMS student and ran the club. I only met David once or twice. I did not hear the story from him but rather his pupils and its been a Long Long Time so most likely I could have stories confused but I am pretty sure this was the normal story promoted. Thanks for sharing!


Peace,

[drleungjohn]

Yes,that's an interesting story-I have that memo from the VTAA -they did a good job of sending it everywhere-

As for the knife film-scary and funny-and sad-the last section??? A kneeling horse maybe? Who knows-was the form on the film the same or similar to the beginning sections he taught you--

Lee Moy Shan's knife was set in a kind of H pattern,like an old karate form-

[Tom Kagan]

Hey Victor-just off topic-based on what you know-did MY ever teach anybody all 8 sections of the knife besides his son?

LOL! I have no idea where people get these ideas. Good teachers don't leave all the knowledge in the hands of one person. If anything, William was forced by his father to work harder to get the knowledge than just about everyone else. (He did, BTW.)


Moy Yat taught the entire knife form as he learned it to probably over three dozen people. (Lee Moy Shan was not one of them.) Also, Victor's comment regarding "first group" was a reference to teaching in the U.S. A small group of Moy Yat's Hong Kong Students were taught it, too.

As far as the tape Victor refers to, probably close to 20 of Moy Yat's students have a copy of it. If memory serves, it contains the forms of Ip Ching, Ip Chun, and ... and ... crap! One other person I can't remember.

All three versions of the form on the tape were slightly different. They were slightly different than Moy Yat's version, too. He presented them without bias, and presented it as alternatives to his. (FWIW, the truth is he did indicate a very subtle bias towards Ip Ching's version of the choreography and away from the three others.)

"F@ck the form! Just hold the knives in your hands and practice what you already know. You do that a lot and you'll know the knives better than anyone who knows a f@cking form. You want a form? I got a tape. Four forms - you pick... and try not to kill yourself. Who the hell else is going to come visit me on Father's Day?"
-- Moy Yat, (to the best of my recollection w/o digging out an 8 year old log.)

[t_niehoff]

"F@ck the form! Just hold the knives in your hands and practice what you already know. You do that a lot and you'll know the knives better than anyone who knows a f@cking form. You want a form? I got a tape. Four forms - you pick... and try not to kill yourself. Who the hell else is going to come visit me on Father's Day?"
-- Moy Yat, (to the best of my recollection w/o digging out an 8 year old log.)

ROFLOL! Maybe Moy Yat was much smarter than I gave him credit for.

[chusauli]

Thank you gentlemen (Victor and Tom) for your comments. I really appreciate your honesty and straightforwardness on this topic. It confirms what I knew about LMS and Moy Yat for many years and I have come to terms with the past.

Victor, I heard much of you and John Cheng's work and I know all about Danny Inosanto and the Moy Yat story. You are a pioneer of the realism from our early generation. LMS was indeed an early student of Moy Yat in the USA, whereas Henry Moy was one of Moy Yat's student in HK.

Tom, your quote from Moy Yat was priceless, and showed both his wisdom and character.

These were priceless posts to me.

Best regards,

[chusauli]

Brian wrote:

Hi Guys,

Just to share. If im remembering correctly, (As im not perfect) - Lee Gar Lin told me, Lee Moy Shan was a H.K student of Moy Yat. If memory serves, he actually had a photo of them together in H.K, just prior to Lee Moy getting on the plane, on the wall, in his school. I was also told that Vinnie Sibok, Steve Sibok and Lee Gar Lin Sifu, were the 3 eldest American students, of Lee Moy Shan. Of cource this is my understanding of what I was told.


B

Hi Brian,

Vinnie Thomas, Richard Louie, Dave Robinson, Steve Goerick, and Darrell Jordan (Lee Gar Lin) are amongst the eldest of LMS' students. They were all my seniors.

Regarding LMS being a HK student of Moy Yat, I don't believe that to be correct, although Henry Moy was. LMS was a NYC student of Moy Yat, and had prior studied Hung Ga, Karate (under Russell Kozuki), and Southern Mantis (under Mark Gin Foon).

[drleungjohn]

Nice of you to pop in-hope all is well-

[chusauli]

All is great! Just taking a bit of time out of my schedule to get some entertainment and enjoy life!

Always nice to catch up with our WCK bretheren!

[byond1]

Hi Sihings,

OK - to add to our info, from Lee Gar Lin Sifu's website, he has an interview with Lee Moy Shan, and states at the top, Lee Moy Shan, who has been teaching VT in the metropoliatin area since 1974!~ Placing all of the other information into context.


B

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,


Just so there is no confusion with Soft Internal Art basic physical method, I recommend reading the first couple of chapters of a Wuji Gong book with Cai Songfeng (pronounced Choy). Without seeing Hendrik one can certainly grasp a damm good idea as to the basic concepts.

While this book is not Wing Chun it has a good description of the basic Cultivation which is remarkably similar to Hendrik's understanding of Cho Hung Choi's Yik Kam basic teaching. Soft art is soft art after all.

One of the most important similarities is the Lower Back/Spine! Since Master Choy's teaching is designed to cultivate the Zheng Qi in the = shoulder ma and this is also an early stanza in the Yik Kam/Cho Kuen Kuit: Collect the yi and union with shen in the = stanza, a physical comparrison is worthy IMO. GM Fu Wei Zhong also uses this root platform. I know as I spent hours with him pumbling him with questions. Soft art is soft art after all.

***

Master Choy teaches the sway/flex of spine which in turn not only condition the body but activate the ren/du/Internal. Classic Soft internal process and activation. Same as CHC's Yik Kam Wing Chun teaching which IMO is the uniqueness of true soft art!!! Just watch any SLT and look at the spine/lower back. It will tell you if this aspect is active or Not. If it isn't? Its not Soft Art.

***

I have watched all the Cho footage presented. You mention that you heard a Cho was the person who wrote those Kuit's and not Yik Kam which means they are still guidelines for Cho decendants to follow right? Yik Kam or Cho member, either one doesn't matter to me since they felt it was important enough to make a guideline for future generation to follow right?

Which Cho practitioner is demonstrating anything to do with those internal guidlines? Ask yourself that question after reading the first few chapters of Cai Songfeng book.


Maybe these links will help understand what Hendrik is talking about and looking for:

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules....iewtopic&t=786

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules....iewtopic&t=804

[Hendrik]

Jim,

IMHHHHHHHHO

Just be very straight forward and direct, whoever trying to get rid or trying to denounce or trying to disprove the first 5 stanza of the Kuen Kuit passed down by Yik Kam is actually damaging Yik Kam's teaching and Cho family, eventhough often these type of tragic happen in the Chinese history where the decendent has no idea what is going on with the close family teaching.



Using common sense, without even have to go to soft or hard art....etc.


the first five stanzas which I have post is the basic of the art.

It teaches on the technics to get grounded, mentally, breathing-ly, physically.

One needs these 5 to start the training of the SLT Yik Kam passed down.

The simple reason is one needs to aware of oneself, the components within one's mind and body. one needs to recognize these basic elements and aware of how the mind is related to the body, the breathing is related to the mind, and aware of the body's support system related to the nature or ground.


A simple fact is if one is not aware and recognize of the basic elements, it is analogy to the cut flower, sure it is beautiful but it is in the flower port, it has no root , no life, and no support.


According to Yik Kam's writting (some will try to pick at the language when I say Yik Kam's writing for arguement sake. let's face it if Cho Soon doesnt have seen Yik Kam's writing and read it copy it understanding it. there is no such thing will passed down within the Cho family today, so stay away form playing with words, the art is in the weakest era, so there is no point to damage the family's art due to unconcious of the subject) that is what needed for Hoi Kuen or open the art or starting the training. to know and recognize the basic essencial components. that is the different which differentiate between close family indoor student or just student.


WCK's strength is Sensing, Observing, Awaring,... thus one needs to be able to sense, observe, aware, recognize what one is doing before one could clearly sense the opponents and the evironment.


Those are the basic training. Those are the key. Those are what differentiate WCK from other non sensing non awareness concious type of art.



Furthermore, these 5 stanza will develop into be able to Observe without Absorb be it for mind and body. This is very important.

for example, we face some one and some one said " I am going to take you down for every fight end up in ground" , so how are we deal with it? Absorb the infomation and starting our own struggling war within our mind before even any physical action? so how to deal with this? these 5 reveal about this type of case...... see what The first stanza said -----, collect the Yee, union with the shen in the equal shoulder stance.


not to mention the handling of the physical....


it is this 5 stanza give the fundamental life to SLT. and we dont do SLT similar to other hard style or non awareness concious based style.



Saying these, some might belive, some might not.... that it is ok for me. at least, I said what is in my heart. Let this post get cast in the stone so that the future generation of WCners knows I have said it. Eventhough I am not the only one who knows and realized the critical important of the first 5 stanza. and BTW 2 of these five stanzas are related to the Emei 12 Zhuang writing. That is a fact.




Dont beleive me, you dont have to?

For those who is interested,
Arrange a two day seminal in San Jose, I will share and guide you throught the basic info with you, and let yourself write about it after you know what it is and see how it will change your life following the instruction. A request I have for this seminal is, this is for humanistic /loving kindness, daily living, and as art to improve one's SLT purposes only. No figthing application will be discuss in the seminal.

Peace

[wslvt-ca]

We would like to avoid jumping generation, Say, a person learn from the sifu, then go learn from the sigung or great sigung, this person in Chinese tradition is not going to be placement under the sigung or great sigung. place oneself under the sigung generation or under the great sigung generation is a violation of chinese tradition, the mandarin tearm is Luan Loon or chaos in generation.

LOL. "Luan Loon" -- as in 亂倫 -- translates to "incest".

[LaterthanNever]

The "Red Boat" WC of the late Grandmaster Yeung Gao Fook (family friend of Bruces' father Lee Hoi Chuen). Master Yeung lived in Seattle and passed a few years ago at age 98.