Any older branches of Wing Chun?

[Jim Roselando]

Hi Brian,


*We have, for the first time in the west, a small exposure to the Lo Kwai family system. The gem has remained hidden from even most Chinese, and is about as tight lipped as the Fung Family of Kulo Village. In fact in their lineage chart, there is only 1 non family member to learn the art. Currently we are working on getting some photo sequences up and more detailed information. This is one reason there has been a hold up on the Debut of the Pedia, as i want this in place for everyones enjoyment.

This will blow some minds, as they preserve their system in 1 single form, very similar to Cho Gar Siu Lien Tau. They also contain material that is only found in Cho Gar, YKS, and Kulo. This material is missing from most Modern WCK branchs, and is how we authenticated the Lo Kwai Branch.

Nice work Brian!

Lo Kwai question for you?

I would be curious to know where or how the Lo Kwai Wing Chun system picked up the so-called Weng kuen kuit if they have not had contact with them?

(teng nuo yee shun shuok)

This is "not" Wing Chun so its jumping out at me. It could be worth investigation as its easy to say anything these days (common in WC/MA world) and we all need to keep our eyes open for odd stuff and help each other with the authenticating process. I remember Grandpa researcher Rene (yeah/your old school I guess RR) used to point out lots of stuff to me when I would bounce things his way or off him. If he (and others) didn't, I would have taken many trips down wrong roads that may have taken longer to walk out of once I added my own specualtion/theory to them etc..

Things that make you go hmmmm

BTW:

I like to see this stuff come out more and more because it actually shows how all the arts are essentially very similar. A few tricks or techniques (maybe even flavor) here and there between lineages but in reality all similar. The core 4 (+) directions of Hand Skill can only be used/combined (single/double handed) in so many ways. So, the Cho set is one longer, YKS (and other futshan) uses 3, Ku Lo uses 12 Hands, etc.. For me, the mystery of WC is solved and its nice to see the private arts being more open but the real gold is not in the systems but the cultivation of body & power generation. Its what makes WC WC.


Gotta run but thanks again for sharing (everyone)!

[Hendrik]

This will blow some minds, as they preserve their system in 1 single form, very similar to Cho Gar Siu Lien Tau. They also contain material that is only found in Cho Gar, YKS, and Kulo. This material is missing from most Modern WCK branchs, and is how we authenticated the Lo Kwai Branch. ------- B



Jim,

I take it Brian will present the cross evidents from all the above families to prove his points when he mention the above. let's wait and learn.




Best Regards
Hendrik

[Jim Roselando]

Hey HS & B,

HS wrote;

Jim,

I take it Brian will present the cross evidents from all the above families to prove his points when he mention the above. let's wait and learn.


Not trying to prove or disprove anything and has nothing against the site. It is one of the best archives for Wing/Weng arts.

1 reason i have asked about this is GM Fung Chun recently spoke out in magazine interview about an WC system/person claiming to be from LJ lineage. He wanted people to know so they can have caveat and firmly denyied his art in public writing. Pretty bold move for the old guy hahaha. He well in his 80's! I am not sure if this is the system but it quite possibly be so why not mention the odd thing so it can be investigated or checked out? GM Fung Chun mentioned a name (and the person was in Canton if memory is ok) but I haven't got it in front of me!

Hope that clears any confusion up!

For me, Old WC, Young WC or what ever and where ever it comes from is essentially all the same stuff. I used to think different but I dont anymore. I like the site because it will show the above the deepeer we look into Wing & Weng families. Look at Por Suk demo, Sum Nung demo & Fung Chun demo side by side. How much difference is there? Not much at all except sequences/sets! I see the same kind of stuff.


Gotta run!

[Hendrik]

1 reason i have asked about this is GM Fung Chun recently spoke out in magazine interview about an WC system/person claiming to be from LJ lineage.


He wanted people to know so they can have caveat and firmly denyied his art in public writing. Pretty bold move for the old guy hahaha. He well in his 80's!

I guess since he is in his 80's he could be not PC and also we could not play pioneer to ask him to show his postion or read his kuen kuit to justify him. hahaha.

It is always great to be old.


Best Regards
Hendrik

[byond1]

Hi Brothers,


Joy - Thanks for the information. We have a fairly extensive list of Yip Man clan on WCArchives. I need to take that information and migrate it into the Pedia, to fill out the Yip Man info- thats why its not currently very detailed. I will make sure the names you listed are included.

Fong did help establish WCK in the USA in the 70s. I actualy had hopes of writing an article on the "NYC WCK" from the early 70s. The one person i approached, who had learned from a large number of the sifus, that were in NYC, during the 70s, evidently wasnt interested. So without his help, im not sure how i would be able to get a detailed picture, as most only learned from one or two, differant teachers, in that time period. This was the time period that- Lee Moy Shan, Moy Yat, Henry Leung, Duncan Leung, Chow K. , than Alan Lee and William Cheung branchs, settled and developed in the USA.

Fong was very...open, with the later stages of WCK training. His books were very detailed, and his glossary was the largest, until now. Great contributions to the WCK community.
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Shadow -

Understood. Already corrected. It would have been sooner, but i had to travel out for the funeral, i mentioned.
Your a great Brother and have been a motivator and support structure for me. I owe you alot. Your sincere hope of bringing Ku Choi Wah Sifu the recognition he deserves, is very honorable, and i hope all in your family, see the purity of your intent.
Working with some of the....more...politicaly stricken WCK systems, has taught me Patience!!~ We can always use the times in life, that many look at as negative, into oppurtunity for growth and change and to work on our "No Mind".

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Jim -

I felt no negativity in your post at all, and i understand exaclty what you are saying and I agree. We all need to help support each others work in the way you mentioned. Bouncing info off of a group of Peers, is the core idea behind the AWCKRI.
Thanks for the information. I remember you mentioned that in another post and I forgot to respond, as i have had alot going on. I had a death in the family, and just got back to Ohio.

You are correct about the Kuen Kuit, and i noticed that as well, once i was going back over material. BUT, Lo Kwai family is not found in China. They escaped with the Nationalists. And they only teach to members of the family. The lineage Fung Chun Sigung speaks about, (in my understanding) is a Leung Chun Lineage from Canton.

I have to say this on the Kuen Kuit you mentioned:

1) It could have been my mistake. Im currently waiting to find out, if i cut and pasted somthing by accident.

2) Its not a "Weng Chun" Kuen Kuit across the board. Its a Kuen Kuit that Andreas Hoffman Sifu, has passed down, in his version of the Cheng Kwong/Dai Duk Lan/Andreas Hoffman hybred system, that he teachs in Germany, that he calls "Chi Shim Weng Chun".

3) Lo Kwai like Cho Shun, already practised CMA. I would have to check my notes to tell you what system Lo practised. Its a good posibility that the Kuen Kuit was something he passed down from his other system. Or the later Family members could have imported it. Just as many branchs of WCK have modern Kuen Kuit that crept into the art. They have remained in Taiwan for a very long time, so we could also assume an indiginous CMA influence is also possible.


4) Kuen Kuit are part of the criterion for comparisons, not the only criterion. The system itself, horse and body use, ging faat, concepts, training and conditioning ect are of utmost importance in my opinion. Many things found in Lo Kwais system prove its authentisity, byond a doubt - (to me). If you are interested, i would be happy to share privatly, a few basics. Drop me an email.

I believe that particular Kuen Kuit is from a soutern Siu Lum origin.

As i mentioned, i have a heavy burden, as i first have to respect the system, ancestors and sifus. We refuse to simply give away the jewels. So we have to present the material in a way, that...those that know will know, and those that dont, wont, but will have a starting point for knowing, if they are open minded. If that makes any blittering sence? And im refering to the work of the AWCKRI, not the WCpedia. As they are seperate. The WCpedia may have articles and info from the AWCKRI, but also has info from every branch, and every major and minor researcher around.

Fast lineage chart question for Mui Sifu. I thought his Sigung, was Fung Chun, but recently i have been told that isnt correct, and its Fung Lim. Could you please help clairify this for me?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hendrik,

Taking Fung chun's opinion, like taking any inheritor or gatekeeper, that is legitimate and has a verifiable connection to the family/system, is as good as money with gold behind it - we know that the opinion or information is from a sound source and strong referance point and so can be considered serious data to be put into the "referance bank".

That doesnt mean the same face is given to modern internet posters, who have no "Face" - in this day and age anyone can say anything. We could have 10 year kids pretending to be Sifu's or Pioneers. So we all have a right to ask for credentials. If i say "WCKs current punching method is differant to the old method" - people will want to know why i say this and ask me to show them the proof. If im really attempting to help others as they are the same as myself, by empowering them to have a stronger referance point, in how they percieve, practise and preserve their lineage of WCK, i will freely give them the proof and let them decide for themselves.

Also any master, can relate the traditions of the system. That doesnt make them historical correct though. For example in Cho Gar, we now find several differant Oral Traditions, including the Chi Shim , as well as the Miu Shun/Ng Mui stories. The WCKpedia wants to preserve the differant Oral traditions as they are passed down with no value judgment on them.

The AWCKRI is where the research work is done, and the individual oral traditions are not part of the criterion - as the systems and material speaks for itself. We simply have to make sure we are interpreting the systems from a clear referance point.

I dont expect anyone to take our word for it. I expect them to take our work, and check it out for themselves. When we makes a claim, if we wish to be taken serious, we need to share our information publicaly, so it can be independently verified. Anything else is playing games, and part of the problem, not part of the solution. I have to say that the goal of the WCpedia is to be a material resource for our community, for all to do thier own research. And the work of the AWCKRI is putting out the clearest case senario, and than allowing others to independently verify it and come to their own conclusions. If i accomplish this, i will be happy, and hopfully others will take our work, and take it even ****her.

I think we must be honest, about localized evolution, as every single branch has it. I think we also must be very honest with ourselves about our own systems and scrutinize, our own, as much or more than others. Its very easy to point to others and say "thats not correct" or "Thats changed".
Its also important , how the information is presented - i learned this from Rene. There are correct ways of pointing out someones evolution in their system, and wrong ways, that are based on Ego rubbing. Ego has no place in an open heart.

In relation to Lineage Chart. Yes. It needs to be clear, but is very difficult and the hardest task i have tackled yet, in regards to my research. I understand what you mean by the "Dotted" lines and agree what you state is traditional Chinese thought and proper.
But there is alot more to consider also. What if someone is considered a traitor by their Sifu and black balled from the group? Does that mean they are not allowed under them with the "Full Line" in the lineage chart, or doesnt the relationship of the Sifu and student matter, but the fact that the information was transmited? And what if others knowingly change material and try to pass it off as original? Do they and should they remain in proper lineage standings? Also my understanding is casual students are not placed on Lineage Charts. Only Inheritors and Disciples are included. And what if someone of lower rank is accepted by their Sigung, as the Sigungs inheritor? See?? So many things to consider, its almost maddening.

Its insane how much work, must truly be put into Lineage charts, to do them correctly. And they are the source of MOST issues, regarding politics.

Good news about Chu Sifu. That info was released several years ago in a magazine article, where he talks about Cho Gar SLT 36 Gings. He has a unique perspective, due to his wide range study of H.K, YKS, Kulo, and Cho Gar, and along side RR, has paved the way, for others, to do research.

With so many doors in Cho Gar opening, i genuinly hope you, Robert or your sihing, will help give the west, a stronger taste of Cho Hong Choi Sifu's system. This is important, to have a ...well rounded picture, of Cho Gar.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I want to thank everyone for their feedback and postive attitudes. I have to get to the grind and get ALOT of work done in 2 weeks, so i may be gone for awile. Anyone wishing to contact me, to have articles or information added to the WCpedia, please Email me at
Deadletter6@Yahoo.com


Brian

[Shadow_warrior8]

Bro,
Your long posts are always exciting with so much info and depth. Appreciate your sharing. You have set out on a daunting task, what we call Ren Shang Ren, Man above man, in faith, patience and heart. Many great generals here, in wingchun have also done much as well so juniors like me, can fantom the depth of wingchun
Chinese say, Ying Sui Si Yuan(in mandarin). Remember the source of your water.
Now that much more info, clarity, direct links are establised, as a mere messenger, my role is done. No matter who says what, or distortions about my intentions, I have done my part to remember the source and honour those who shared their art with me. I am content and at peace with myself.
My source of inspiration on how to live life in the martial world(for those into HK TVB dramas)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18LzGWL4ZV8
Donnie Yen rocks........

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Brian,


Thanks for the post.

This system (Lo Kwai) has me thinking also of another question. According to Fung Sang's notes, when Leung Jan was questioned as to the differene between their Ku Lo art and the WC arts outside the village he said:

The Wing Chun outside our village is the Jing Sun system and is taught in 3 parts, SLT/CK/BJ, but in our village it is Pin Sun system and is taught with 1 Set. Both are from the same family and differ very little.


This makes me also go hmmm when I hear someone claiming a one long set from LJ so I always keep my antena up hahaha. Could he have taught someone one long set? Anything is possible!


Gotta run guys!

[Jim Roselando]

B,


Fast lineage chart question for Mui Sifu. I thought his Sigung, was Fung Chun, but recently i have been told that isnt correct, and its Fung Lim. Could you please help clairify this for me?


Mui sifu was trained by Fung Chiu sigung for 7 years. Fung Chun and his nephew Fung Chiu left Ku Lo around the same time and had the same migration route. Both first went to Canton and then to Hong Kong. Mui sifu was also training partner for Fung Chiu's nephew but Fung Chiu's nephew was not very serious about WC where Mui Sifu was and never stopped training.

Here is a funny piece of info.. It was Mui Sifu's school teacher, a pupil of Jiu Wan, who told him that there was an exception master from Leung Jan's home village who just relocated here. His teacher told him: If you can learn a little bit of this mans Kung Fu you will have a lot.

"Fung Lim" is the source of the Yee Sup Yee system. (22 point) Its his public system and the system he taught his Son in Law which is the source of the old Fung's mixed Fujian with WC to create hybrid system rumor. To the best of my knowledge, Fung Lim never taught in Hong Kong. Hong Kong had Fung Chun, Fung Chiu, Fung Sang etc..

Most of the Fung family trained with many of their uncles and cousins and brothers etc. so they can be found in numerous lineages but all mainly had a coach. Fung Chiu was mainly taught by his Uncle Fung Chun. Mui sifu never spoke much about his art or lineage. Some used to think he was taught by Fung Sang which isn't the case. This would make Fung Lim one of his Sigung but he did not train with him. Fung Sang's half brother lives in Boston. Nice guy but very private. They all know each other.

I wrote an article for IKF on Mui Sifu's training and stories of his outstanding sifu. From Mr Mui's public school only one person I have had contact with new anything about his art/background and that was Steven Warshaw. His first public non-chinese student. Steven spoke Chinese so that gave him different level of conversation but I have Steven e-mails telling just how tight lip'd Mr Mui was and is. Hope this helps.

[Vajramusti]

Sorry to hear of the funeral.Please accept my condolences.

joy chaudhuri

PS. An important thing in disciplined writing IMHO is to acknowledge sources of information... so that readers can judge how much weight to give the evidence.

[Jim Roselando]

SLT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6dNi...elated&search=


CK:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEy5U...elated&search=

[Hendrik]

These thoughts comes to me this mortning,


Something I would have to think hard and learn.


Who has more ego?


people like Wang Xiang-Zai who tell the truth straight in other's face and not willing to compromise and negotiate to give face.

people who has no idea what is going on but keep writing like pro or pioneer , while confronted , will accuse others as EGO?

people who has no insight or nothing to do with the inner cycle into a family/lineage making up lineage chart...etc which brought more distortion?


people who purposely write/censor/ degrade a certain things because one likes or dislike a certain person.



how deep do we willing to face these above stuffs within ourself.




This world is too complicated.

I rather go and listern to the 5th of bethorven, and let the world has its own symphony.

Could one resonance naturally with the 5th? if not, then what matters? nothing. what to write if one has not even enter the door?




For the Yik Kam lineage, It is the realization or attainment of the Rythm, resonance, vibes, nature makes the 5th the 5th and the difference. There rest, older, original..... doesnt matter. Could one passed the 5th, if not it doesnt matter if it is 1850 or 2050. one simply doesnt know.

just ask the magic question, could you describe the uniqueness to the specific of your lineage? could you demonstrate what is it? such as the inch power...etc? if not, then, it is chinese said, dicussing the Taiji Classical writing as literature subject ---- off the mark. so how could one able to get into the subject? Cant, lets face it.




just some thought on the subject of older branch of WCK, position, title......


were are we? what are we doing? time to meditate.

[Hendrik]

i genuinly hope you, Robert or your sihing, will help give the west, a stronger taste of Cho Hong Choi Sifu's system. This is important, to have a ...well rounded picture, of Cho Gar.

Brian

Thanks,

We do Yik Kam lineage. Robert, me , sifu Jim Roselando and others in the west half of the world also have Yik Kam's 5th stanza transmission.

It is not about round picture it is about an indepth investigation of what Yik Kam teaching is and unnegotiable.

[byond1]

Hi Jim

Thanks for your very detailed - specific information. I will make sure the info in the Pedia abides by what you stated!~

When you mentioned Fung Sangs "The Wing Chun outside our village is the Jing Sun system and is taught in 3 parts, SLT/CK/BJ, but in our village it is Pin Sun system and is taught with 1 Set. Both are from the same family and differ very little" - I must say - i have never bought it, as being an authentic quote.

But lets say it is. The Lo Kwai family preserve that Leung Jan first learned on the Red Boats. Just before the Tai Ping, he left, and took over his fathers shop, and began teaching. Lo Kwai was a very early student. During the Opera Ban, WWB and LYT retired to the Local area. LYT died after awhile. WWB and LJ continued training together until WWB joined the 8 Harmonies Union. At this time, WWB and LJ together created the modern structure of WCK. They broke down the Single form into what the 3 forms+ jong and weapons. During the time WWB was in the 8 Harmonies union, is when i place Fok Bo Chuen learning from him. So it was at that time, he learned the 3 Hand forms. So if LJ made referance to the 3 hand forms, it could have been from the referance point of the end product passed on.

But, why dont i think its authentic (Fung Sangs Quote)?? Because most major branchs of Mainland WCK that trace themselves to the Opera Boats, all preserve WCK was 1 single form originaly. And the systems that preserve this tradition also preserve the older methods, including the older punching method. I cant go into details currently. But Lo Kwai family has been timestamped based on the system, Not oral tradition. Just as we can timestamp Cheung Way Boes SLT, based on his system not his Oral tradition of Chi Shim and Shaolin.

Thanks for the conversation!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joy and Shadow -

Thanks both of you. This will be my last post for a bit, as i have alot to do. But encouragment means alot, so thanks for your time in posting positive things.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik -


When you say "It is not about round picture it is about an indepth investigation of what Yik Kam teaching is and unnegotiable" - You mean from your perspective. My perspective isnt from a Cho Family member. Its from a general Community standpoint. So it is, in my work, about a well rounded picture. Let others better suited work on Indepth for Cho Gar. Cheung Way Boe and Ku Choi Wah are going to do great things in the future, in sharing, the Cho Gar tradition.

Half the world has things posted online, with nothing to validate the material. If someone from say the Leung Chun lineage stated they had the private journal of Leung Jan. Wouldnt let anyone but a few "Friends" see it. Nor provide photos or scans for the hand writting/Journal to be analysed and translated, nor even allow the journal to be authenticated and time stamped by an actualy historian , who in their right mind would believe them? To make matters worse, 2 or 3 differant branchs of Leung Chun lineage come out and state they have the Journal as well, they provide the journal, all 2 or 3 branchs preserve the exact same material, and it has nothing like what the first branch said it was? What does probability dictate? As i say Sihing, my grandmothers kuen kuit "The proof is in the Pudding"
- Good luck with your work.


Brian

[Hendrik]

Cheung Way Boe and Ku Choi Wah are going to do great things in the future, in sharing, the Cho Gar tradition. ------B



Ku and Cheung sifus have done great things in the past, present, and certainly in the future for continously sharing their knowledge.




If someone from say the Leung Chun lineage stated they had the private journal of Leung Jan. Wouldnt let anyone but a few "Friends" see it. Nor provide photos or scans for the hand writting/Journal to be analysed and translated, nor even allow the journal to be authenticated and time stamped by an actualy historian , who in their right mind would believe them? To make matters worse, 2 or 3 differant branchs of Leung Chun lineage come out and state they have the Journal as well, they provide the journal, all 2 or 3 branchs preserve the exact same material, and it has nothing like what the first branch said it was? What does probability dictate? As i say Sihing, my grandmothers kuen kuit "The proof is in the Pudding"------ B



You and I see things differently.

Let me share with the public my view.

Raise up in traditional Chinese, the following will be what I am following.




1, if I know such a person from Beethoven lineage, I will certainly guard myself to discredit him/her because I am not belongs to the few "friends" who s/he trust.

Jealousy is what I would guard myself from.



2, If I know such a person from Beethoven lineage, I will practice Drinking the water and respect the source, instead of in one way using his information and on the other hand trying to discredit him to gain control because I want to be a pioneer in the field I have no idea what so ever.


Unjust to others is what I would guard myself from.



3, if I know such a person from Beethoven lineage, I will ask politely so that he teaches me the 5th symphony instead of bad mouth and doing everything I can to smear him just because he wont endose me. and just because I lost face because I put myself as a pioneer but I actually have no clue even to discuss the very basic. For he knows, I have no idea on how to play piano.

Dont know what I dont know ; and Dont know my position on what I can or cannot speak for, is what I would guard myself from




4, If I know such a person from Beethoven lineage, I will respect him for non negotiate on his family art and choose who to share and who not to because without NON negotiate on the art and keep the art alive within a few who is capable, the Standard of the art degrade and that is destroying the art.


not Standing up for what is right selling my soul for my fame and vanity is what I would guard myself from.


It takes gut to stand up for the truth. It takes decades and decades to cultivate an art.

that is the path instead of calling this person sigung that person sijo when one wanting thier information to boost oneself's position ; and then turn around to discount them when one doesnt get thier endosement.

See, Truth and ART is about attainment not about clever arguement, one could win the arguement but if there is not attainment. what's left? Nothing but words.







- Good luck with your work.----B


Thanks.



I certainly have very Good luck to meet Rene who help to keep the record of Yik Kam lineage and my communication evidents to SEA Cho family senior on record.

I certainly have very Good luck to meet my brother Robert Chu who protect the art of Yik Kam.

I certainly have very Good luck to meet Jim Roselando who is sincere and make special trips for past two years to the west coast from the boston to learn the heart method of Yik Kam, the snake, the 5th, no matter how much Craps I purposely give him and put him down to see if he is the right person who really love the art.


I certainly have very good luck that you place my past information in your excellent website so that the future generation could track the Yik Kam teaching. Thank you.





Looking back I thank God's , Yik Kam's and Cho ancestors' help.

Without Rene and Robert's help the name of Cho Gar and the Yik kam lineage would not be known as today but NanYang WCK as in the Complete WC. For they are the one who suggest the names for sake of preserving the art after they have a through study of the issue after the Complete WCK is published.



As a messenger,

The next phase messege is, Yik kam and Cho family decendent must not compromise to lower the barr or standard of the ancestors. As I mention in my post before, it is ok for us to say we dont know for now and still have time to restore the core key. We all need the 5th to turn on the engine. one must not destroy the high standard of Yik Kam and Cho Dak-Shing via sloppiness and low standard.

If the 5th is gone, if the snake or the energize water sleeve is gone, if the close body reel is gone. then we no longer have the art. However, there is another thing which is more precious then the art, that is humanity and setting one and other free with love. Our ancestor's name Cho Dak-Shing means Winning with Dak or virture. Dak-Shing means Winning with high skill standard and humanity.




so, see how lucky I am chatting with you, God give me a chance to post this in the web. and at least if I die tonight and see Yik Kam or Cho ancestors on the other side, I would look at them in thier eyes, and says " WITH EVERYONE"S HELP, I complete my job."


Dont you think there is a lots of luck? to get to where I am tonight? Thank you.



Best Regards

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Brian,


Hi Jim

Thanks for your very detailed - specific information. I will make sure the info in the Pedia abides by what you stated!~

JR

When you mentioned Fung Sangs "The Wing Chun outside our village is the Jing Sun system and is taught in 3 parts, SLT/CK/BJ, but in our village it is Pin Sun system and is taught with 1 Set. Both are from the same family and differ very little" - I must say - i have never bought it, as being an authentic quote.

I appreciate your thoughts but it happened to be published in Chinese Magazine in the 70's and Fung Sang always was one of the more open PSWC sifu's. The family gave him a hard time in the old days for being so open I am told. Fung Sang was interviewed by a reporter and the interview was published. JR

But lets say it is. The Lo Kwai family preserve that Leung Jan first learned on the Red Boats. Just before the Tai Ping, he left, and took over his fathers shop, and began teaching. Lo Kwai was a very early student. During the Opera Ban, WWB and LYT retired to the Local area. LYT died after awhile. WWB and LJ continued training together until WWB joined the 8 Harmonies Union. At this time, WWB and LJ together created the modern structure of WCK. They broke down the Single form into what the 3 forms+ jong and weapons. During the time WWB was in the 8 Harmonies union, is when i place Fok Bo Chuen learning from him. So it was at that time, he learned the 3 Hand forms. So if LJ made referance to the 3 hand forms, it could have been from the referance point of the end product passed on.

Possible. I need to check timeline/dates. Some claim Leung Jan was the founder of the 3 Fist sets. There is a contradiction in theories even coming out of the village (actually many stories these days 12/22/40 so take them all with a grain of salt) but this is different from what Fung sifu claims to be Leung's transmission during question/answer time with the master. JR

But, why dont i think its authentic (Fung Sangs Quote)?? Because most major branchs of Mainland WCK that trace themselves to the Opera Boats, all preserve WCK was 1 single form originaly. And the systems that preserve this tradition also preserve the older methods, including the older punching method. I cant go into details currently. But Lo Kwai family has been timestamped based on the system, Not oral tradition. Just as we can timestamp Cheung Way Boes SLT, based on his system not his Oral tradition of Chi Shim and Shaolin.

This does not mean they dont say it was originally all one BTW! They actually write that in the article hahaha! See if one of your friends in the village can send you the Published Interview. It was Fung Sang Sifu who was interviewed and Fung Sang's half brother, Fung Ming, thanked me for giving him a copy of his brothers interview that he has not seen in many years a while back. If his brother acknowledges its authenticity then thats good enough for me! IMO, its one of the few authentic articles ever published on Ku Lo family art. Fung Sang was BIG TIME researcher of Leung Jan art. Every family has one or two that really get into the history/system and this man was a fanatic for preserving info. on his families art/Leung Jan in general. JR

Thanks for the conversation!