Any older branches of Wing Chun?

[Hendrik]

Hey Brian,



This does not mean they dont say it was originally all one BTW! They actually write that in the article hahaha! See if one of your friends in the village can send you the Published Interview. It was Fung Sang Sifu who was interviewed and Fung Sang's half brother, Fung Ming, thanked me for giving him a copy of his brothers interview that he has not seen in many years a while back. If his brother acknowledges its authenticity then thats good enough for me! IMO, its one of the few authentic articles ever published on Ku Lo family art. Fung Sang was BIG TIME researcher of Leung Jan art. Every family has one or two that really get into the history/system and this man was a fanatic for preserving info. on his families art/Leung Jan in general. JR

IMHO, the bottom line is
One needs the insight of the power generation, uniqueness to understand what is going on.

if one is not from the decendent of the lineage and having and capable to show the real deal or uniqueness of the transmission. One is only in the position of learning certainly not in the position of judging.

Dont believe me?

my usual test :

for the lineage on is presenting,
explain what is Short Jing? how to do it in detail, what is the uniqueness, how is the scientific reason that it is accord to the Newton's law? could one synthesis it ? where is it in the older set, younger set, original set of SLT? if one cant identify that, then what is the older, the younger, the original .....set of SLT good for? mimic the posture is not going to yield the art. That is forsure.





otherwise, we could spin our brian on the subject and have all the theories but at the end of the day, nothing works well.




Brain, what do you think?

it will be great if your website could added a section of the test above. so that one could discriminate between what is real transmission and speculation naturally.

That will make your website a high quality one and no one need to play police but let the inheritance art speak for itself automatically. Those who have the art thus could share as much and those pretender cant get in to distort the art with clever conversation or make believe pioneering.



my two cents.

[byond1]

Jim -

Great food for thought and thanks for sharing. I will keep an open mind. When you say "This does not mean they dont say it was originally all one BTW!" I agree completly, thats what i meant when i said "So if LJ made referance to the 3 hand forms, it could have been from the referance point of the end product passed on." - Guess I worded it in an ..unclear way.

Yes, you did mention Fung Sang had the WCKBug!!~


I recently received a very old article on Kulo, from NMH, but havnt translated it yet. It appears to have Kuen Kuit listed, but dont hold me on that, as perhaps its simply a listing of San Sik, as I thought I saw something written about "Siu Lien Tau".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hendrik-

.0) In general - I would guard against those that take an open heart innocence, and than use that to strike them and manipulate reality to become something, they can champion against. I would also guard against the judges and jury, that attempt to appear so wise, they can judge and jury others, without even actually seeing or meeting that which they seek to judge and jury, nor allow themselves to be subjected to the same judging that they seek to due to others.

I would also guard against the Beethoven lineage Falsifying who and what they are by making sure they "proved there pudding" to you.



1)"Jealousy is what I would guard myself from" HS

- I think its best to be happy with what you have. Many in America tend to look at what others have instead of focusing on what they have or what they are doing.

I would guard myself against "wolf in sheeps clothing". Those that pretend sincerity, but really are skilled at "Knives in the back" Faat, or only seek to advance themselves instead of communal advancement.- B




2) ""If I know such a person from Beethoven lineage, I will practice Drinking the water and respect the source, instead of in one way using his information and on the other hand trying to discredit him to gain control because I want to be a pioneer in the field I have no idea what so ever."" HS

Yes i agree whole heartedly~IF one could find a ~Authentic~ Beethoven lineage- And they proved it via Realtime interaction, many would drink the water with respect and ~DO~!! . The same isnt given to con men, ethnocentric racists, or internet warriors. Im sure you understand.
I would guard myself against being trapped in Dualistic thought and paranoia
and illusions of grandur

I would also again suggest the Beethoven Lineage would need to show the "Proof of their pudding" - and I would also suggest that anyone seeing that type of complicated darkness in others, should work on overcoming the ego that needs to feel like a champion and a victim, at the same time.- B





3) ""3, if I know such a person from Beethoven lineage, I will ask politely so that he teaches me the 5th symphony instead of bad mouth and doing everything I can to smear him just because he wont endose me. and just because I lost face because I put myself as a pioneer but I actually have no clue even to discuss the very basic. For he knows, I have no idea on how to play piano. "" HS


I would guard against elitism, superiority complex, and "Making checks one cant cash" as well as avoiding illusions of grandur.
If i actually found what i thought initialy to be an authentic branch of Beethoven Lineage, it would be easy to validate. "The proof is in the pudding" or as they say in America "Put up or shut up". If the Beethoven branch refused to actualy play for anyone, or be recorded for others to scrutinize, yet they put out alot of propaganda on other musicians and their lack of skill, and what was "true" music or authentic music, (As if that actually exists), we would know them for what they were. And than, wouldnt have to waste time.

IMO Sihing, and this is only from my perspective, you only know if someone knows how to "Play" their instrument, if they have the salt and minerals, to "Play". Im a musician and have experianced the same things, as I do in the WCK world, in the music world. Anyone can say anything online. Fine. Lets meet. The truth will be sorted out, one way or another. Prove they can play the 5th backwords or whatever claim they make. But I would be very ignorant if I judged the Beethoven lineage or anything in life, if i actually didnt experiance it.

I think one of the problems in America, is people need others approval or endorsement. Its best to endorse oneself, by your achiements and your love that you give to whatever you do, in life. Hopefully this can impart that to others in our community, as true strength "Is internal". We wont even touch upon the poor souls, who think others need their endorsement - B









4) "4, If I know such a person from Beethoven lineage, I will respect him for non negotiate on his family art and choose who to share and who not to because without NON negotiate on the art and keep the art alive within a few who is capable, the Standard of the art degrade and that is destroying the art."" HS -

Here we are in complete accord - but i would add also, being "very vigilant" on weeding out the Fake Beethoven lineages from the Authentic Beethoven Lineages.- as well as, I would also be carefull of internet warriors/musicians, who wouldnt actually show the "Proof of there pudding" - B






5)"See, Truth and ART is about attainment not about clever arguement, one could win the arguement but if there is not attainment. what's left? Nothing but words"

Here again !! We are in complete accord. Thats why the "Proof/Truth is in the pudding" - So those that have attainment have something that is repeatable and verifiable. So its not about arguement. Its about "Lets face the truth together whatever it may be" and "Lets show the proof of our pudding" - B







6)"Our ancestor's name Cho Dak-Shing means Winning with Dak or virture. Dak-Shing means Winning with high skill standard and humanity."

Thats really a beautiful translation - B






7)" Dont you think there is a lots of luck?" HS -

Actualy no, Sihing. I dont believe in luck. Its just an expression, wishing someone else the best. I actualy believe in action, non action and karma. - B







8) "if one is not from the decendent of the lineage and having and capable to show the real deal or uniqueness of the transmission. One is only in the position of learning certainly not in the position of judging." HS

YES - Exaclty!! If one is capable of "Show the real deal" - Than they have to "show" it - By "Showing it" it implies a "doer" and "perciever".
I would think Sihing, only a very very few, are in a position to judge. Anyone else is only in a position of learning. Those that are in positions to judge, for sure are not found on the internet. Grandmasters like Fung Chun are from a differant world. And even the next generation down, is very removed from "this" world, of illusion and internet.-B






9) "otherwise, we could spin our brian on the subject and have all the theories but at the end of the day, nothing works well.""

Facinating!!~ You must have BRIAN on the BRAIN. lOl. - B



10) Brain, what do you think?

Thanks for the compliment - but its not needed. Im more than happy to include your work, Ku Choi Wahs work, and other branchs of Cho Gar in the WCpedia. Currently im working on the Cho Gar lineage chart, and have reached some very difficult parts. Im not sure what direction to go in 4 or 5 differant situations, but will do my best to represent the truth, even if that truth bothers people. If you wish to share your opinion on who the Cho lineage chart should be, I would be more than happy to work it in. - B




11) "it will be great if your website could added a section of the test above. so that one could discriminate between what is real transmission and speculation naturally"

If you wish to create the "Hendrik Santo WCK authentication test" which would judge other WCK branchs to your personal WCK- I would be more than happy to put it up for you, or anything else you write for that matter.

I cant keep up my current pace, so something has to give, and that will be posting. Any further feedback from anyone can be directed to
deadletter6@yahoo.com - i wish the best for everyone, and I will let everyone know of any updates.

sincerly

Brian

[Jim Roselando]

B wrote:

Jim -

Great food for thought and thanks for sharing. I will keep an open mind. When you say "This does not mean they dont say it was originally all one BTW!" I agree completly, thats what i meant when i said "So if LJ made referance to the 3 hand forms, it could have been from the referance point of the end product passed on." - Guess I worded it in an ..unclear way.

Yes, you did mention Fung Sang had the WCKBug!!~


I recently received a very old article on Kulo, from NMH, but havnt translated it yet. It appears to have Kuen Kuit listed, but dont hold me on that, as perhaps its simply a listing of San Sik, as I thought I saw something written about "Siu Lien Tau".

Cool. If the poem mentions:

Siu Lin Tau & Dai Lin Tau
Practice them often it will change you!

Then that could be one of the articles. It does have some oral accounts/advice from LJ and other intersting stuff Fung SiSuk talks about.


Have a good one!

[Hendrik]

8) "if one is not from the decendent of the lineage and having and capable to show the real deal or uniqueness of the transmission. One is only in the position of learning certainly not in the position of judging." HS

YES - Exaclty!! If one is capable of "Show the real deal" - Than they have to "show" it - By "Showing it" it implies a "doer" and "perciever".

I would think Sihing, only a very very few, are in a position to judge. Anyone else is only in a position of learning. Those that are in positions to judge, for sure are not found on the internet. Grandmasters like Fung Chun are from a differant world. And even the next generation down, is very removed from "this" world, of illusion and internet.-B



Thus, I propose to use EEG and HRV as a part of measurement.

That way we could based things on solid ground instead of stories.

Jim and his friends are buying the EEG machines.
So, Illusion or facts, hook one up and let the machine do the rest of the job.










10) Brian, what do you think?

Thanks for the compliment - but its not needed. Im more than happy to include your work, Ku Choi Wahs work, and other branchs of Cho Gar in the WCpedia. -B


Thank you

However,
Dont take my work or my words for it.

and infact, I will be even more happy if you take all information based on me out. I love to share but I dont like to be in any famous site.


I propose to Jim,
Take Jim's EEG, HRV and power generation and data log it . or take Jim's student's EEG... and data log it.

so that other researchers will know what is going on not based on me but based on the Technology of Yik Kam.











Currently im working on the Cho Gar lineage chart, and have reached some very difficult parts. Im not sure what direction to go in 4 or 5 differant situations, but will do my best to represent the truth, even if that truth bothers people. If you wish to share your opinion on who the Cho lineage chart should be, I would be more than happy to work it in. - B



Mine is "opinion" and your's is "represent the truth" . you must have endosement from Yik Kam himself.

Thank you for your offer my sigung and sifu had done all the work for me, I just follow them
.



If I were you, I would stay 100 miles away from it because I am not in the position to even have opinion about a subject Cho On, Cho Hong-Choy, and Sam Chan has settled it some 40 years ago in Penang, Malaysia.

thus, is there any needs to over write those GM's? who else closer to the core of the family and the art then them ?


As a descendent of Yi Kam via Cho Hong-Choy, I simply Follow the blood line and technology. Life is simple that way.

lately, I have already recieved complain from SE Asia about some website is posting distorted title in the lineage that get them into trouble with thier sifu. I certainly dont want to be a part of those type of stuffs.















11) "it will be great if your website could added a section of the test above. so that one could discriminate between what is real transmission and speculation naturally"

If you wish to create the "Hendrik Santo WCK authentication test" which would judge other WCK branchs to your personal WCK- I would be more than happy to put it up for you, or anything else you write for that matter. -----B



Why dont we called it Brian WCK authentication test instead of Hendrik Santo WCK authentication test?

since it is your website and you are the one who do research and judgement " to represent the truth, even if that truth bothers people." as you said, I am not into those.







Best Regards

[byond1]

Hi Hendrik!!


"Thus, I propose to use EEG and HRV as a part of measurement.
That way we could based things on solid ground instead of stories.
Jim and his friends are buying the EEG machines.
So, Illusion or facts, hook one up and let the machine do the rest of the job.""-HS


This only proves certain aspects of ones training, not if a - swimmer, knows how to swim, but to if they can get into the Zone. So again - "The proof is in the pudding" - My grandmother was very wise. 7th daughter of a 7th daughter. I was transmited a very long Kuen Po. Very beautiful and rich with Polish ethnic diversity and color. I also have the set written, in the original Polish/English hybred, customary of imigrants in those days. Perhaps one day, we can reflect on its wisdom together.






""I love to share but I dont like to be in any famous site.""HS

Please, no endorcements. I wish our work to stand on its own to legs. The truth doesnt need supporters, it simply is and we are doing our best to remain neutral. And the site is far from famous, it hasnt even debuted yet!!. RR has the real site, that has spent years and years, bringing the public invaluable information. Ours is just a baby, as far as im concerned and wouldnt exist, if numerous members of our community hadnt stood up and offered to partisipate. The thanks and credit goes to them, and the ancestors.






""so that other researchers will know what is going on not based on me but based on the Technology of Yik Kam." - HS


Interesting. So i guess its a good thing that we now have Cho Gar and Yik Kam lineage. Preserving both great traditions.





""If I were you, I would stay 100 miles away from it because I am not in the position to even have opinion about a subject Cho On, Cho Hong-Choy, and Sam Chan has settled it some 40 years ago in Penang, Malaysia."" -HS


Yes, perhaps you are right. In fact 100 miles may not be far enough. LOL
I did hear about what happend many years ago in Penang.It was a shame, Sifu and Cho On Sigung had issues. Thats why we have...treaded carfully,as to respect those that are gone, we dont want to stir up any dust, but represent the truth.






"you must have endosement from Yik Kam himself."" - HS


Im far simpler than you Hendrik. I dont need any ones endorsement. My love endorses what I do.
We do have the opinions and general traditions, from 3 major Cho Gar branchs and Poon Yu Village.
They dont preserve a "Yik Kam" lineage. That disrespects all the generations of Cho Gar. They preserve 'Cho Gar', which WCK is only part of the overall family system.





"who else closer to the core of the family and the art then them ? "


Hmmmm. Poon Yu and Cho Chuen??








""lately, I have already recieved complain from SE Asia about some website is posting distorted title in the lineage that get them into trouble with thier sifu. I certainly dont want to be a part of those type of stuffs.""HS


Thats true. We to have recieved numerous emails from SE Asian detailing a false represenitive of Cho Gar. Evidently he has attempted to confuse many people, for a very long time.





""Why dont we called it Brian WCK authentication test instead of Hendrik Santo WCK authentication test?
since it is your website and you are the one who do research and judgement " to represent the truth, even if that truth bothers people." as you said, I am not into those." HS



No need Sihing. Im not the one challenging every single master in my lineage, by publicaly telling everyone they dont perform basicaly every part of their lineage correctly. Im very simple - I love WCK.

The truth I refered to was the truth about the lineage chart. That makes many people loose face. As I said, we are at a point, where we have to work through some negativity that has been burried for a very long time. We are trying to respect those that have already passed on, but also need to not compromise the truth.

brian

[VingDragon]

above posts remind me a little situation from our Weng Chun community:

there are 3 different Shaolin Weng Chun families: Lo, Tang and Chu. Each represents different forms and techniques of the same style and from the same roots! all of them are Shaolin however it doesnt mean the one is the best or keep the truth.
during the years they did share their knowledge and friendship at Dai Duk Lan but beside that, they also teached their private students at home so some of the movements interpreted differ from what others do. As you see, everyone, even from the same Sifu, after many years, modify some movements to interpret his/her own spell of the form.

[Hendrik]

The truth I refered to was the truth about the lineage chart. That makes many people loose face. As I said, we are at a point, where we have to work through some negativity that has been burried for a very long time.

We are trying to respect those that have already passed on, but also need to not compromise the truth.

brian

Brian,

Excellent!


You have your truth, I accept and respect.

Everyone has thier view and I respect that.







The following is my view,
since you are a WCK scholar, I assume you respect my request.




Here is my public address for you and the WCners.


Here I request respectfully for Brian to take out all the informations I have posts in the past which Brian has used in his research and his site.



Yes, I have allowed Brian to use my information before.


However, after I have learn more about the project, I found out that it is not suitable for me.
Thus, I decide to reserve and not to share my information for now.



Best Wishes for the project. Brian, appreciate for you help to delete all informations related to me.

With Respect

Hendrik







To all WCners,

As a decendent of Yik Kam and Cho family, in chinese trandition, there are things I am not suppose to do, would not do, would not taking part, and would not endose to do.

That is due to I am not in the position and could not responsible for the impact.

Thus, I hope fellow WCners understand my decision to withdraw my information.






on the following issue,

""If I were you, I would stay 100 miles away from it because I am not in the position to even have opinion about a subject Cho On, Cho Hong-Choy, and Sam Chan has settled it some 40 years ago in Penang, Malaysia."" -HS


Yes, perhaps you are right. In fact 100 miles may not be far enough. LOL
I did hear about what happend many years ago in Penang.It was a shame, Sifu and Cho On Sigung had issues. Thats why we have...treaded carfully,as to respect those that are gone, we dont want to stir up any dust, but represent the truth.-------Brian





As a Grand disciple of Gm Cho On, disciple of GM Cho Hong-Choy, and Sidai of Ah Chay and Ah Peng, I must report the following FACT to the WC world, otherwise, I owe it to my Sigung, Sifu, and Sihengs.


The fact is :

In the mid 70's when my two sihengs, Ah Chay and Ah Peng were preparing to compete in Loi Toi, my sigung Cho On showed up at my sifu's home, my Sigung spend time personally taugh my sihengs how to fight and said " our WCK's uniqueness is Huen Kaam Tiu Tap......."


Both my sihengs still live in Ayer Itam, PG. This can be varified easily.



What respect is there? what truth is there when Fact are not presented and let those GMs who had passed away to not rest in peace ?

That is beyond me, Thus, I let Go and Let God on this matter.




This will be my last post for this matter on this post.


Best Regards

[Hendrik]

above posts remind me a little situation from our Weng Chun community:

there are 3 different Shaolin Weng Chun families: Lo, Tang and Chu. Each represents different forms and techniques of the same style and from the same roots! all of them are Shaolin however it doesnt mean the one is the best or keep the truth.

during the years they did share their knowledge and friendship at Dai Duk Lan but beside that, they also teached their private students at home so some of the movements interpreted differ from what others do.

As you see, everyone, even from the same Sifu, after many years, modify some movements to interpret his/her own spell of the form.

I agree.




all these TRUTH stuffs remind me about what we could learn from the Chinese History So that we all could be better.--- The Chinese Culture Revolution.



where at that time, for most young people, there is only one Truth --- that is to be righteous and to get rid of the "old Ghost" culture, which is bad and wrong for China.

and after the young satisfied thier righteous victory and thier "high" of humiliating or killing thier High School teachers, thier parents, thier university proffesors...destroying thier ancestors teaching....ect,

what was found is there is only one TRUTH. and That is the TRUTH according to Mao Tze-Dong's desire of destroying his political enermy and grasp power without give a damm about the people and thier long term casualty.



the country's economy was turn back ward for decades and massive "old Ghost" or jewels of China which has been destroyed, and could never recovered-- destroyed in the name of Truth.

That is painfull. and I hope we could learn from that.






What is Truth? IMHO, that is not important, It is trying to safe as much core as possible is the key. My chinese proffessor told me once, keep whatever, every thing you have , even you cannot understand them, otherwise, when you need them you no longer have them.






WCK for me is about Energy handling.

one needs to raise from the physical, to breathing, to mental, to awareness make the best and natural used of the nature's resonance into the power generation.

I would not believe mimic-ing some posture or doing some set will be able to resist the wrestle, the BJJ, the Kyokushin, or the Mua Thai, or any strong style to come.

IMHO, the measure of knowing the art is not in the form but in the power generation handling; and even that is master, doesnt guareentee one is a great fighter. not to mention if one doesnt have it.


What is the truth?

I leave it to God. Let Go and Let God. otherwise, it becomes an ego fight.


Just some thoughts.

[ChangHFY]

Hey Kal,

You should also look into the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen system.
Which its oral history dates it back directly to the Southern Shaolin Temple. Its lineage dates back to the late 1600's.

Check these links out for info on the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen.

http://www.hungfakwoon.com/mainhfy.htm
www.vtmuseum.org (this website also has info on Hung Fa Yi)


take care,
Zach

[Ultimatewingchun]

But it's history can't be independently verified.

[ChangHFY]

No offense Victor laoshi,

But hundreds of Chinese Martial Arts systems cant be independently verified.

There is no proof that Wong Long existed so does this mean Praying Mantis is not real or a hoax or etc...

The Mizong system is still unsure how it was even created. And some accounts dont even list Huo Yuan Jia as the founder.

Can Ng Mui, Yim Wing Chun be verified? Does this mean what your studying is not Wing Chun?

Most records were kept via oral communication.

So my point is you single out one system among hundreds and for what reason?


take care,
Zach

[t_niehoff]

No offense Victor laoshi,

But hundreds of Chinese Martial Arts systems cant be independently verified.

There is no proof that Wong Long existed so does this mean Praying Mantis is not real or a hoax or etc...

The Mizong system is still unsure how it was even created. And some accounts dont even list Huo Yuan Jia as the founder.

Can Ng Mui, Yim Wing Chun be verified? Does this mean what your studying is not Wing Chun?

You are correct -- most TCMAs's histories cannot be indpendently verified. This does not mean, however, that we should accept those histories as true. We should only accept those things as true which have been proved true, with indpendently verifiable evidence. Things that cannot be proved true with independently verifiable evidece we just say are unproven.

WCK, like Praying Mantis, is a real martial art, but that does not mean that their respective oral histories are true.

Most records were kept via oral communication.

Actually, there are numerous written records kept by religious, social, and governmental authorities (most of which don't support the "histories" of the TCMAs).

The problem with oral histories of martial arts is that they can easily be false (or falsified).

So my point is you single out one system among hundreds and for what reason?


take care,
Zach

I can't read Victor's mind, but for me, *any* claim of WCK history that cannot be independently verified I take as either legend (typically allegory) or marketing or both.

Two TMA history articles worth reading IMO that sum it up:

http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/china_revie...6.2henning.pdf

http://seinenkai.com/articles/hennin...llycorrect.pdf

[anerlich]

So my point is you single out one system among hundreds and for what reason?

Taking a wild guess, I'd say he singled it out because you mentioned it in a post just before.

You're right that that for many systems the historical claims are unverified, often unverifiable, and occasionally fanciful. Those that make claims to the contrary, or of unusual purity, completeness, age, or special status, invite challenge.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Anerlich has hit my point on the head...I'm not doubting the existence of HFY per se as a legitimate style of wing chun - I'm just tired of HFY people constantly pointing people to it's "history" over and over again when NONE of it can be verified.

So when I read that there was a 2-hour seminar in Britain wherein all that was shown was the first section of SLT and a little dan chi sao - but lots of time spent talking about HFY theory and HISTORY...I've got to scratch my head and wonder!

A little less theory and a lot less unverifiable history - coupled with twice as much actual SHOWING of what HFY looks like in action would go a long way - let me tell ya'.

SEEING IS BELIEVING.

[ChangHFY]

Thanks for the replies,

Actually I agree with most of your statements Terrence.

Anerlich and Victor,

No offense but the same can be said about TWC wheres the idependently verifiable evidence that G.M. Ip Man even taught G.M. Cheung this system?

Although I have great respect for G.M. Cheung and his awesome TWC.

When you point fingers at other systems generally they will be pointed back at yours.

What difference does it make how much or little history was mentioned, considering you werent even at the Seni. (so why are you complaining?)

Again I have a lot of respect for you Victor as a laoshi and a martial artist so theres no disrespect meant.


take care,
Zach