Any older branches of Wing Chun?

[anerlich]

Thanks for the replies,

Anerlich and Victor,

No offense but the same can be said about TWC wheres the idependently verifiable evidence that G.M. Ip Man even taught G.M. Cheung this system?

I don't believe the TWC party line. Never have. To me historical veracity is insignificant compared to present effectiveness, and I enjoy needling those who suggest that the one necessarily has much to do with the other. I'm a bad person. Sue me.

Although I have great respect for G.M. Cheung and his awesome TWC.

Yeah, right. Whatever.

When you point fingers at other systems generally they will be pointed back at yours.

Whatever floats your boat. Point away. Go wild. It's been happening for 20 years, I doubt you have a new angle.

What difference does it make how much or little history was mentioned, considering you werent even at the Seni. (so why are you complaining?)

I'm not complaining. WTF has the Seni got to do with anything?

Again I have a lot of respect for you Victor as a laoshi and a martial artist so theres no disrespect meant.

I respect Vic's opinion as well, so I backed him up, even though I don't know or care what a laoshi is.

take care,
Zach

I will. Suggest you do the same, Zach.

[JPinAZ]

Anerlich has hit my point on the head...I'm not doubting the existence of HFY per se as a legitimate style of wing chun - I'm just tired of HFY people constantly pointing people to it's "history" over and over again when NONE of it can be verified.

So when I read that there was a 2-hour seminar in Britain wherein all that was shown was the first section of SLT and a little dan chi sao - but lots of time spent talking about HFY theory and HISTORY...I've got to scratch my head and wonder!

A little less theory and a lot less unverifiable history - coupled with twice as much actual SHOWING of what HFY looks like in action would go a long way - let me tell ya'.

SEEING IS BELIEVING.

Victor,

This is the second time you speak of a 2-hour seminar in UK that you were not at, try to make it into nothing, yet you have no idea what you are even talking about - You weren't even there!
Being one of the 'HFY people' you talk about, I DO have experience with the WC Formula as leaned in HFY (something that WAS covered in UK, was mentioned in the pther thread, and something you fail to mention in your post that attempts to belittle the system). The formula, which is the key to HFY's structure, gate theories, CL theory, 2-line concept, etc, etc. carries a lot of information with it. This one short 'form' could be discussed for a week, and still not cover everything. Can you give all the details in your system in 2 hours??

Maybe it would be best to have been present at something before you speak about it? Or even have experienced 1 day's worth of time in the system you try to talk down about. Or do you not believe in experiencing things for yourself before judging? NM, I think I already know the answer

Like you said: "SEEING IS BELIEVING" - regarding HFY WC, what have you really SEEN, besides some pictures in a book? Basically, to me it seems you're just trolling...

RE History: People will believe/disbelieve what they want, even if the proof is right there in front of them, or there is no solid proof. Not everyone will believe what they are told, nor what is there in plain sight. That's life - but really, who cares? I don't believe WC was developed and developed and taught by some obscure woman, but that's doesn't make it false information.

Jonathan

[Chango]

Victor,
Your hatred for my Sifu and the HFY lineage is clouding your since of logic here. you seem to have issues controlling your emotions. It would probrably be better if you would spare the forum and the rest of us from your rants on HFY. We all know that you have made up your mind on things and that is not going to change via the internet. You have already said that you are not interested in HFY so nuff said.

you chose to remain ignorant when it comes to HFY. That's fine, but the bad thing is that you take every opportunity to display this ignorance. Man come on

[drleungjohn]

Since MOST haven't seen or experienced HFY-

1-What makes it different?

2-What is the WC formula?

3-What theories seperate it from mainstream WCK AND TWC?

No politics-trolling-etc-discussion and education--go...

[osprey3883]

Hello,
I think that because of the nature of TCMA and their oral histories, the best we can often do is present our families oral histories, in a respectful manner. TCMA bring a lot of fulfillment to many of us, but many spend way to much time typing, trying to tear each other down. I am a firm believer that we would have way less of this BS if we could have more hands on, face to face interactions.

Victor-

A little less theory and a lot less unverifiable history - coupled with twice as much actual SHOWING of what HFY looks like in action would go a long way - let me tell ya'.

I believe Grandmaster Gee is going to be in Rochester in August for a public seminar. I will happily pay your seminar fee if you are sincere in your desire to experience the teachings of GM Gee in person.

drleungjohn

Since MOST haven't seen or experienced HFY-

1-What makes it different?

I had a chance to put hands on/study a few MA's before I was exposed to HFY.
My first Sifu really pressed on me that the details were important, so when I was exposed to HFY it's understanding of structure and body geometry really got my attention. In HFY the training platforms and the concepts behind them help you develop body skills in a very focused manner. Certainly other arts have similar training, but for me the system logic of HFY was something that I could relate to immediately. Sorry this is more of a personal explaination than a technical explaination.

Matt

[Savi]

Greetings John,
Knowing how sensitive it is to discuss Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun here on KFO, I would say it is best to start a new thread to address your questions so as not to hijack this thread.

I am more than happy to address your questions personally, and I will start a new thread regarding your questions in the next day or so.

Regards,
Savi.

[t_niehoff]

Hello,
I think that because of the nature of TCMA and their oral histories, the best we can often do is present our families oral histories, in a respectful manner. TCMA bring a lot of fulfillment to many of us, but many spend way to much time typing, trying to tear each other down. I am a firm believer that we would have way less of this BS if we could have more hands on, face to face interactions.

To go back to anerlich's observation for a moment -- if TCMA's "oral histories" were clearly presented as legends, stories, etc. and not as factually true no one could, or would even care to, raise objections. We can all respect each other's legends; it's when people begin to talk about their legend as "the truth" that the issue of independently verifiable evidence arises (proof that it is true). In other words, calls for proof only arise *because* claims of "truth" have been made. So if people would present their legends as legends, this whole issue wouldn't even come up.

Face-to-face interactions would IMO reduce the level of hostility but not the BS: that is built into the "culture" of the TMAs.

[ChangHFY]

Anerlich,

Most of my post wasnt directed at you,

So I should have been more specific.

Just wanted to make that clear my mention of the Seni07 was to Victor since he was the one referencing it.

Anways its really not important.



take care,
Zach

[Ultimatewingchun]

I don't hate the lineage. It's only one man in the system who I have no use for.
And as I've said on numerous occasions, I like what I've seen of HFY precisely because it looks so much like another wing chun system I have great respect for: TWC.

So yeah, once again I was taking a swipe at Benny Meng.

But even if it was somebody else from HFY who put on a seminar like that (as it was reported by someone who was there)...I would say the same thing - including if it were a TWC seminar - or whatever wing chun style.

This is 2007. If you put on a martial arts seminar for 2 hours and all you actually "show" the attendees is the first part of SLT and a little dan chi sao - then you've got your priorities in a bad space, imo.

A total marketing space geared for an audience that largely doesn't exist anymore. This is not the 80's or even the mid 90's. The realism of MMA has changed the paradigm: less marketing and more martial realism seems to be the order of the day. I thank the Gracie's for that. (And all those from other styles who have followed their lead).

So I don't like all the history, lineage, and theory hype anymore when I see it - including when it comes from within my own lineage.

But as a courtesy to Nick I won't post anymore on this thread about HFY in general or it's history, theory, personalities, or marketing strategies in particular. So you guys can have the last word for now - I don't care.

And then we can move on and not hijack yet another thread.

[t_niehoff]

A total marketing space geared for an audience that largely doesn't exist anymore. This is not the 80's or even the mid 90's. The realism of MMA has changed the paradigm: less marketing and more martial realism seems to be the order of the day. I thank the Gracie's for that. (And all those from other styles who have followed their lead).

I don't agree with the observation about "an audience that largely doesn't exist anymore". I think there is a huge "audience" of people who want to practice martial arts but don't want realism, don't want to fight, don't want to do the mandatory training to fight, etc. In fact, I think the group of people genuinely interested in "martial realism" is very small in comparison.

People can practice martial arts for whatever reasons and goals they like -- it's all good. So because different people approach martial arts, including WCK, with different goals and objectives in mind, it should be expected that they will be attracted to various teachers who offer more in an "area" that interests the prospective trainee/student.

[anerlich]

Most of my post wasnt directed at you

Fair enough.

None of this is overly important.

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Brothers,


. . . Fong did help establish WCK in the USA in the 70s. I actualy had hopes of writing an article on the "NYC WCK" from the early 70s. The one person i approached, who had learned from a large number of the sifus, that were in NYC, during the 70s, evidently wasnt interested. So without his help, im not sure how i would be able to get a detailed picture, as most only learned from one or two, differant teachers, in that time period. This was the time period that- Lee Moy Shan, Moy Yat, Henry Leung, Duncan Leung, Chow K. , than Alan Lee and William Cheung branchs, settled and developed in the USA. . . .

Brian

I studied with every "known" WC Sifu that taught in NYC in the 70's. Maybe I can help you.
Phil

[byond1]

Hendrik - I will post a responce to you tomorow. I have been very busy.





Phil - Very good point, you are about the most experianced, of anyone from that time period. That was such a special time in WCKs development, and most of us, never got to experiance it. It would be a great part of your legacy documenting everything that happend during that time period.

We could write it, several ways, im not sure what you would prefer. We could use an interview format. Or a chronological progression, based on realtime events. Send me an email, at deadletter6@Yahoo.com, and we can hash out the details.


B

[drleungjohn]

i'D LIKE TO HELP OUT IF POSSIBLE-

[byond1]

Sure Doc. It will be nice to be able to cross referance dates and such, making sure we get them correct.

deadletter6@yahoo.com


Ok Phil if its cool with you, the 3 of us, can get this kicking. Both of you please send me emails, with your initial thoughts, on how we should do this. Wether by Email or Phone, and start setting up the Chronological order, of who came first.

According to Chow Sifu, and Henry Leung Sifu, both predated Lee Moy Shan, who was in NYC, in exaclty 1972. Than Moy Yat followed in either 73 or 74.
Leung Sifu modern group of students place him in NYC in 1969.

Than a bit later we have ALan Lamb, Duncan Leung, Jason Lau, 2 Alan Lees, and than William Cheung when he first brought TWC, to NYC. Anyone I forgot??

B