Any older branches of Wing Chun?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Moy Yat moved to Brooklyn, NY from Hong Kong in September, 1973...and began teaching almost immediately.

[drleungjohn]

Related to Duncan-taught in Queens NY from the late 70's to early 80's then moved to Vegas-

[Hendrik]

Brian,

Thank you for your caring.






These are realities which are facts.


The reality is you have done excellent job for your website to benifit the Wcners with professional quality. and I respect that highly. That is a fact.



The reality is , eventhough I am not perfect, I dont know it all about YIk Kam and Cho family; and indeed there are much I could learn from other close family senior members;

I am a close direct decendent of Yik Kam and Cho family;
there are technologies which passed to me within close family which some of the lineages might have even lost them.

There is no obligation for me to share these information / technology with everyone or general public because it is private and even within the family one has to earn them. It is not about title or default by one's last name or political campain.





As what Mother Teresa said," count me in where it is march of peace" when someone invite her for march for anti-war.


I support only action lead to keep alive the art, grow, and harmonize the family. Anything other then that or when I am not sure the agenda, I will not take part or endose or exchange for personal benifit, for the final analysis is between me and Yik Kam or the Cho family ancestors and not others.






Best Regards
Hendrik

[byond1]

Hi Brothers


Now im hearing from some of the Henry Leung Camp, that he was in NYC in 1961!!!! Can anyone vouch for this?? That would place WCK in NYC about 10 years earlier than I thought.


Vic - Understood. Thanks.

Doc - I will ask Phil about it. Im sure he knows the exact date, as he learned from Duncan, if i remember correctly, just as Duncan opened his school, along side Steven Leung.

Ok so we have established Lee Moy Shan moved to NYC, in 1972, and Moy Yat in Sept. of 1973. So we need to put Chow K. Sifu and Leung Henry Sifu into proper perspective.

I know Chow Sifu is a grandstudent of Leung Sheung, learning from Ng Wah Shum. Ng was known for his beimo, and was actually fairly deep in the local H.K M.A community, frequently being asked to "Judge" contests and such.








Hendrik - sorry I havnt posted a responce yet. Ive been rushing to get so much done. IMO, Your are never obligated to share anything. I respect your rights to share or to not share. I respect your rights to state your opinion or not state your opinion.

When I first asked you permission to use posts, that you made over the years and collect them, put them up, so others may have it as a resource for your work, your statement to me was "They are not mine anymore. I gave it to the public to benefit all. Do with it as you will" - So I spent 28 hours collecting the data, over a week long time period. Than later you mentioned I could include your article on Cho Chong Choi and Cho Gar.

Suffice it to say, if I didnt respect your work and Cho Hong Choi, or your rights to express your opinion, I wouldnt have gone to so much effort. As you know I agree with alot of what you believe, but I disagree with certain parts. But it doesnt matter if I fully agree or not. Your research deserves to be heard and is a valuable part of the search for the roots of WCK.

[byond1]

Ok more data

Chow K.Sifu states in his Bio, he was in NYC in exaclty 1971. If this can be independently verified I think we have:

Henry Leung 1961-1970
Chow K. 1971
Lee Moy Shan 1972
Moy Yat September 1973

w/ Jason Lau, Duncan Leung, Alan Lamb, Alan lee, Allan Lee following

Than if i remember correctly the first time TWC came to the NYC was in 1984?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik - sorry I havnt posted a responce yet. Ive been rushing to get so much done. IMO, Your are never obligated to share anything. I respect your rights to share or to not share. I respect your rights to state your opinion or not state your opinion.

When I first asked you permission to use posts, that you made over the years and collect them, put them up, so others may have it as a resource for your work, your statement to me was "They are not mine anymore. I gave it to the public to benefit all. Do with it as you will" - So I spent 28 hours collecting the data, over a week long time period. Than later you mentioned I could include your article on Cho Chong Choi and Cho Gar.

Suffice it to say, if I didnt respect your work and Cho Hong Choi, or your rights to express your opinion, I wouldnt have gone to so much effort. As you know I agree with alot of what you believe, but I disagree with certain parts. But it doesnt matter if I fully agree or not. Your research deserves to be heard and is a valuable part of the search for the roots of WCK.

Brian,

Thanks for your caring response.

As we all professional scholar knows, different people love to share in a different way. There is nothing good or bad. Nothing right or wrong. It is just different.






My interest is to preserve as much information which was passed to me from Yik Kam and Cho family lineage as possible. Doesnt matter whether it is right or wrong, so that later when others need them they could find it. as it is.

I know I am not perfect and dont know it all. however, any data filtered is risking to cause a big damage to Yik Kam and Cho family art.

since art is something if one doesnt have the level of insight, one will have no clue what is going on. Since I am not the grand master, I am not in the position to take any risk.


With this interest, I myself prefer Eric Lin's type of site so will continous to share to that type of site.



I respect , trust, and feel my vibes close to Erics' style is that for example this morning when he reply :

" I will be meeting up with Por Suk again very soon. I will get him to elaborate and tape it for you.

I don’t want to pretend to know anything about Cho Gar other than a viewer’s perception.."






He is right. there are things that without the experience, not within the close family, without knowing the situation, or without an experience, could not know.




As an example I have experienced with, there are some one who ask his students to call me sisuk for years since the first day we met, be it in the writting, or forum...etc.

And suddently somehow some outsider decided this person has to be in higher position / rank level. so he was promoted into my sifu's level.

I am stunt.

how could this person promote just because some one likes to? not to mention this person has a sifu who now got demote to have the same rank with him.

May be in some other culture that is ok. But for me, I feel Eric's way suit me better because I am from SEA.




Also, I am not use to deciding others internal family affair. As a chinese, the confusius said, " one doesnt making decision on the matter where one is not in the position." I am just too traditional chinese.







Your site is an excellent research site. I respect you spend 28 hours collecting the data and over a week long time period . I can relate to the experience because I spend almost 25 years to understand the yik kam's SLT enginee based on the yik kam kuen kuit, white crane, and emei technology..

That is to the point, it could be possible to help others to synthesis the 5th stanza to orbit in a very short period of time, within days instead of years, those who have visited me such as Jim or others experience themself.





Thanks for your caring. and I hope we passed on this subject for now.

Perhaps there are room in the future for sharing after I understand more about your site. however, I would reserve my sharing for now.

Thanks and appreciate for your caring response again.


Best Regards
Hendrik

[Ultimatewingchun]

You're correct about TWC, Brian. It first appeared in NYC when William Cheung did a week-long seminar in February, 1984.

[drleungjohn]

He officially started teaching in 1974 on 32 St. in NYC

[byond1]

Hi everybody,

Thanks for everyones contributions so far.


Doc - Im approaching having a basic structure. Once thats in place, im going to work with Phil, relating his experiances with each teacher. Send it to him to polish it, or make corrections and/or additions, and than send it to you, for your input and cross referance. If thats cool?

OK - here is where I need some opinions on - time frame wise.

1) Henry Leungs modern students state he moved to NYC in 1961. I was told initialy by an old school student it was 1969. Can anyone confirm either of these dates?





2) Chow K Chung states in his Bio :

Sifu Chow came to New York in 1971. Sifu Chow opened his first Wing Chun school in New York City. New York Wing Chun Kung Fu Club was set on 224 Lafayette Street in 1972. The school was a success. Later, Sifus like Moy Yat, Duncan Leung, Jason Lau also came to New York and started their Wing Chun teaching.

Any information on if this is accurate?




3) Lee Moy Shan- He officially started teaching in 1974 on 32 St. in NYC

But my understanding Lee Moy Shan was in NYC in 1972 and started teaching a few privatlly before opening his official school in 1974. I believe Vinnie Sibok was one of his first or was his first student. Moy Yat came over in late 1973 because Lee Moy Shan had already been here developing WCK for at least 1 year and told Moy Sigung that people were interested in WCK.


4) Duncan Leung , Jason Lau and Alan Lamb

Any one have any ideas about where and when they first started teaching? Im also not sure if Jason Lau publicaly operated a school, or simply taught a few guys privatly.







Brian

[byond1]

Thanks for sharing Vic. Very interesting.
From what I have always heard, Lee Moy Shan learned from Moy Yat in H.K. Perhaps i heard wrong!!


B

[Jim Roselando]

Brian,

From what I have always heard, Lee Moy Shan learned from Moy Yat in H.K. Perhaps i heard wrong!!


The Lee "Moy" Shan club in cambridge, ma (back in the day) said:

Lee Shan originally trained for a period of time under Moy Yat in Hong Kong. Moy Yat relocated to USA and Lee Shan studied a harder style (maybe Hung Gar if memory is correct) when he left. I believe it was not that long but eventually Lee Shan relocated to the USA and continued/finished his training with Moy Yat. Lee Shan eventually open a school with his sifu's name as credit. May Yat Ving Tsun club. Lee Shan's students payed the same respect to him calling their club: Lee Moy Shan Ving Tsun Club.


I'm sure the people who were close to this line have more stories.


Peace,

[Tom Kagan]

"Lee Shan originally trained for a period of time under Moy Yat in Hong Kong. Moy Yat relocated to USA and Lee Shan studied a harder style (maybe Hung Gar if memory is correct) when he left. I believe it was not that long but eventually Lee Shan relocated to the USA and continued/finished his training with Moy Yat."


NOT TRUE AT ALL. I don't know who started that story - but it's a total fabrication. Douglas Lee (Lee Moy Shan) never met Moy Yat until November, 1973...in Brooklyn, NY.

Jim,

Victor is correct about Douglas.

As an aside, I do find it interesting the story is actually of Henry Moy's history.

[byond1]

Hi Guys,

Just to share. If im remembering correctly, (As im not perfect) - Lee Gar Lin told me, Lee Moy Shan was a H.K student of Moy Yat. If memory serves, he actually had a photo of them together in H.K, just prior to Lee Moy getting on the plane, on the wall, in his school. I was also told that Vinnie Sibok, Steve Sibok and Lee Gar Lin Sifu, were the 3 eldest American students, of Lee Moy Shan. Of cource this is my understanding of what I was told.


B

[byond1]

Hi Hendrik

Thanks for all the wonderfull sharing.

1) In my understanding, from what I have found, Yik kam is the Red Boat Opera performer that taught Cho Shun, and later in in Poon Yu. The Kuen Kuit passed down by Cho Shun to Cho Dak Sang and Sam Chan, should be from Yik Kam. What Sam Chan passed down to Cheung Way Boe, and Cho Dak Sang passed down to Cho On and Cho Chuen, should have been the same.

This isnt the same as saying - you personaly have the "Hand written papes of Yik Kam" - Which you have stated publicaly numerous times over the years. You also stated something in the hand writing, suggested a Fukien dialect. So to be clear, all im saying is, if this is truth, perhaps one day, you will allow them to be translated and printed for the whole of the WCK community.



2) I think whats best, is for you to go back to Singapore and address all of your opinions on Cho Gar. Than pay Cheung Way Boe a visit. Than vist Poon Yu Village. I would also share with all of them, how you feel, they have lost part of the art, and see what comes of it. If you truly believe this in your heart, its best to not keep it trapped inside. Communication is always the best route.


3) Yes, 50/50. But since you are the one that feels the other Cho Gar branchs are missing components, its best for you to follow up. Its more logical for you to do, as you are a Cho Gar practioner. I am not, and appreciate all the various blossoms of the plum flower tree of CHo Gar. I would be more than happy to put up your findings, in the pedia.


4) Ask CWB, Singapore Cho Gar, Poon Yu Village, and Cho Chuen decendents, if they want to post their Kuen Kuit. Its not my place to put up material. There has been an expressed concern from several of the Cho Gar branchs, of having their material stolen.


5) Its not my place to teach others WCK currently. Perhaps my sifu would agree to teach you, if you were humble, and didnt try to tell him, what was what. I did offer to visit you, as did an elder of mine, to share with you, in realtime. But you didnt accept.

Everyone has been waiting for you to video tape yourself. So if you expect others to, its best to lead by example. You are also finding problems with everyone elses WCK, so you must really be high hands. I think we could all learn from you. Please share in hopes of improving the quality of WCK everywhere.

4th section?? Yes, I heard about the 4th section. Cho On accused someone of changing, making up or adding material if I remember correctly. As you know the 4th section is simply the core cycles. The way I practise WCK, is the cycles are practised first. And are not linked into a long form, as in Cho Gar.

Short Ging is trained in every single aspect of what I do. From the first Pian Choi to SLT to LDBG. Just like the Half Point, is hidden, in everything I do. If you wish to discuss it indepth, you can send me an email, and I would be happy to share with you, what little i know.

I have already made the fact clear, that I do not practise Cho Gar. Please review past postings to save bandwidth.



So I have a few questions for you.

A)Please share who, you and Cho Hong Choi, learned the Emie 12 jong from?

B) Could you please Video tape your self performing SLT back to back with the Emie 12 Jong, so we can see what the connections you are refering to??

C) Is it true that most of your ideas, about WCK being Internal, actually came from Tai Chi??

D)If you are willing, I think it best if you helped me with Cho Gar Lineage Chart - So things are done correctly. As a librarian you must have collected all the data. You did mention somewhere that, Cheung Way Boe shouldnt be a student of Sam Chan, but Cho Hong Choi? And Sy Liu is a student of Cho Hong Choi??




Thanks for all your time in responding.

Brian

[drleungjohn]

Just for the record-I also heard he was a HK student as well-trained some there-then here in NY-Opened a school with MY's blessings in 74

Yes-Vinnie,Steve and Darrell were his first "American" students/disciples-but Richard Louie and Stan here on the list were also "oldtimers" and "firsters"

Hey Victor-just off topic-based on what you know-did MY ever teach anybody all 8 sections of the knife besides his son?