Why I don't practice CLF anymore.

[Fu-Pow]

Some people have thought in the past that I have a certain allegiance to a particular martial arts style, sub-branch or teacher. They were dead wrong. What my quest in martial arts has always been is to find the best style, sub-branch or teacher and learn as much as I can. (I often approach that learning from many different angles, historical, practical, biological to get the best understanding that I can.)

With that in mind IMHO there some serious flaws in the CLF system. That's not to say that CLF isn't effective as a method of hand to hand combat, it can be. The problem as I see it is that there are more efficient ways and better strategies to the same result (ie effectiveness in hand to hand combat.) The style that I have been increasingly drawn to for the last ten years is Chen Taiji..... for these two main reasons, efficiency and strategy.

Greater efficiency means 3 things:

1) Less wasted motion leads to greater power potential.
2) Less wasted motion leads to quicker response times.
3) Less wasted motion leads to less training injuries.


In the strategy of Chen Taiji hard force (li) is not met with hard force (li.) That's not to say that force is never resisted or met with resistance or that force is not issued.

However, it is different than meeting it with muscular strength. The strength in Chen Taiji is more like the rigidity of a hose filled with water rather than an iron bar like CLF (or any other external style for that matter). In practice this means that there is less chance of injury as a result of your own actions. Yes, you can hard block an attack with a shin or forearm but eventually your body will pay the price.

So I think there are better ways and that is the path that I am following. I don't regret my CLF training, it still informs alot of what I do and it was a great discipline for me as a young man. However, as I move into my 30s I need a training method where I can continue to progress for the next 60 yrs (hopefully!). Unfortunately, that means that I've had to "invest in loss" and abandon my CLF training so that I can refine the body mechanics of Chen Taiji.....and they are very different from anything that I currently understand.

Best to everyone in their training and I hope you CLFers still consider me your kung fu brother even if I've chosen another road.

Take care,

FP

Here are some clips of my Taiji Sigung:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4w_62WX9Rk

Here's some really good Chen Taiji push hands from my Sibak:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DADYbpj4oMw

[htowndragon]

uhh....half+ of ur ignore list are probably some of the most hardcore CLF people on this forum...

[Fu-Pow]

uhh....half+ of ur ignore list are probably some of the most hardcore CLF people on this forum...

Am I missing your point?

[Crosshandz]

Are you practicing the Hunyuan Taiji form or Hong Junsheng's practical method?

[Fu-Pow]

Are you practicing the Hunyuan Taiji form or Hong Junsheng's practical method?

Hun Yuan Taiji. Chen Zhonghua is a student of Hong Junsheng and now Feng Zhiqiang.

FP

[msg]

that stuff looks realy interesting . like a tai.chi hsing.i mix iam probaly wrong thats what it lok like to me but it looks like it would also have health benifets .and a good fighting system

[T. Cunningham]

CLF Nole makes a solid point. At the end of the day, it all boils down to the instruction and how well the student follows it. Regardless of the style, the objective should be natural movement otherwise injury is inevitable. The same applies with efficiency of movement. It comes down to understanding the movement and how it relates to your body. Many people assume they are advanced simply because they practice the higher level forms. Problem is they often perform these in the same fashion as they performed the beginning sets. Being that the methods of generating energy become more sophisticated as we move through the forms, it is essential that our understanding grows and that we adapt our movements accordingly. The forms teach us these things, but we have to pay attention.

Kung Fu is a thinking man's/woman's game. It requires rational thought and analysis in combination with the endless repetition of your forms and drills.

[hskwarrior]

see, i agree with clfnole, t.c., and eddie.

also, choy lee fut isn't for just anyone. truthfully, clf is without a doubt one of the most effective systems out there. its practical, effective, and not full of flashy moves that mean nothing.

however, if one was to find holes in his clf, there is enough material out there within clf that if you looked good enough, you can cover up ALL the holes. I agree with drilling, but forms are becoming obsolete? (spelling) in its purpose. when i get stressed out, i practice my forms. partly because i train as if someone is in front of me. so i wipe em out every time!!!!!!! but, forms in the bigger scheme of things is on the lower end of the totem pole when it comes to fighting and learning how to use your gung fu.

don't get me wrong, performing is fun, but nothing beats bashing arms, and struggling and such.....forms just don't bring it like that. that's why i hope in the near future more clf schools will back off on forms cause too much credibility is given to them.......like what lineage is better due to forms......a dance, just a routine set of moves. if anyone believes that you can use the moves within the forms, you're sadly mistaken.

nothing is as predictable as when practicing forms. in fact, i guarantee that at least 90% of our gung fu gets thrown out in the heat of battle. thats why its great to drill combo's, work on muscle memory, and eventually break away from that "ok, with your right hand punch me at a 90degree angle using only your two knuckles and aim it at my nose".......................i along with other CLF sifu's have taken a different approach to that kind of training. truelly, thats not effective.

so let fu pow go..........clf will still be here.

[CLFNole]

I agree with you Frank. Every style has some type of weakness as no style is 100% effective one just needs to work on not letting that weakness get exposed or work in improving the weakness by either re-examining what you know or opening up your mind and looking elsewhere for help.

I am not sure I completely agree that forms can't be used for fighting. I agree long drawn out sections are completely impractical but bits and pieces can work. But then I think we probably both agree on that since that is what drills basically are effective bits and pieces from the forms.

I don't think anyone should get on Fu-Pow for chaning to a different style. If CLF is not for him no big deal because its right for us and that is what matters most, doing what is best for us whatever style that might be.

[hskwarrior]

now im kinda giving up some of my teaching secrets.....but for new students they don't get to learn the form until they master the techniques within them. something not typically done in hung sing. its usually before understanding the form, you learn it, practice it and only after you memorized it do you get to look inside of it.

so i took the combo's and such out of the sets, drills them and when i see progress they get to learn the form. i've discovered that they learn better that way, and actually know why and what they are doing in the form prior to learning it.

like most speak about clf's long range stuff, but they have no idea about the inside hands of our gung fu. so what. let them believe that. but just cause you find limitations in what your SIFU taught you, doesn't mean that clf doesn't have an answer.......be creative, open minded, and willing to learn. then you'll recognize how to strengthen weakness's n how to build on your strengths. thats why i feel i don't have to go outside of clf to learn things......unless its grappling....

who knows?

[CLFNole]

That is more or less what I was referring to as a weakness possibly the grappling aspect. I am with you on the inside stuff there is plenty of that and we do have cum la and some grappling type stuf but of course it is not as refined as jujitsu becuase the ground isn't our primary focus.

We also incorporate many of the techniques into the early stages. In the warm-up it is common to practice various techniquess - chop choy, gwa, sow, biu and combos from right side to left side. This makes the transition in learning a form a bit easier.

[Fu-Pow]

Regardless of the style, the objective should be natural movement otherwise injury is inevitable. The same applies with efficiency of movement. It comes down to understanding the movement and how it relates to your body.

I disagree. Some styles are fundamentally more "natural" than others. Some are detrimental to health because they require your body move in an contrived way. For example, doing a wide horse stance with your toes pointed forward puts undue pressure on the outside of the knees and ankles.

However, in the Southern styles I have studied this is considered correct. Also, turning the toes in doing a bow stance puts pressure on the outside of the knee. This is a common training method in the forms of Southern Styles...not just CLF.

But we can debate this for days and you will probably disagree with me. However, this has been my experience and that's all I can really say. If our experiences are different than there is no common ground that can be reached.

I can say that my body is a lot healthier since quitting practicing CLF and only doing Taiji. My girlfriend who is a massage therapist (thanks god!) has noticed a huge release of tension in previous problem areas. And these problems were not being caused because I wasn't following the advice of my former teacher....but because I was.

[T. Cunningham]

Fu Pow,

You're right. We'll have to agree to disagree. I've been doing CLF a bit longer than you and I've had my share of injuries. I can attribute those injuries to incorrect/unnatural movement derived from my understanding of how things should be done. Once my understanding was corrected, my problems for the most part went away and I was able to execute the techniques with more power.

As to horses, with the knees pushed out or in, there will be pressure on the joint. The question is how long you take in building up the time you sit in the horse and whether or not your structure is correct. Some people rush the process.

Regardless, good luck in your new pursuits, but be careful of falling into the same situation.

[Fu-Pow]

Todd, I appreciate your perspective. Like I said, I don't think that it was something that I was doing "wrong" but rather something inherent in some of the methodologies/strategies of CLF.

Let me reiterate though, I'm not disputing CLFs effectiveness as a martial art. What I'm disputing is CLF as a long term methodology/strategy, I think ultimately you will pay a heavy price and there will be a cap on the progress that one can make.

Some might say "well you didn't give it enough of chance" or "you just didn't get it" or "it was your teacher" or simply "you suck"....but the truth is I pursued this for 10 years under a really good teacher.....I was a certified instructor under this teacher and teaching alot of classes for him.... and so my analysis is not hasty...it's based on many years of training and study.

Anyways, its just my two cents...people are welcome to disagree if their experiences are different than mine.

FP

[Fu-Pow]

That's a pretty cool story (and great insights as well), thanks for sharing it.