safety of this taoist sexual practice?

[phoenixrising]

I was recently told by a chinese acquaintance of an alternate taoist sexual technique he was taught- It involves the male getting himself to the point where he is about to emit and then dousing his bits with cold water, wait until you're soft again, and repeat ten times. This is done 3 times a week and is said to greatly improve the strength and health of the genitals, plus improve 'staying power.' Anyone know whether this would be harmful or not, specifically to the prostate? I read elsewhere that the problems with some these taoist techniques, from a health perspective, is that by repeatedly filling the prostate with semen but then not allowing it to expunge, problems result. Another side effects , I have been told, that may be associated with certain taoist sexual techniques are testicular cancer.

[herb ox]

You sure the cold water on the bits isn't a prank?

Seriously, though, the cold splash is probably meant to subdue to the heat created and maybe drive the yang deeper in. Problem is, there's already stagnation starting with the 'holdbacks' and cold is further contracting and constricting.

This stagnation created by the engorgement of blood can cause discomfort in males. I've heard doing exercises like Keigel contractions help to massage the qi and prevent this stagnation.

Theres a few good books out on the subject. Daniel Reid, Mantak Chia and Stephen Chang come to mind as authors to check out.

ox

[NJM]

Well, I don't believe that what you referred to is a Daoist technique. However, a proven scientific method for increasing "staying power" is to stimulate until near-ejaculation, then compressing the head and repeating this 5 times each time.

[RonH]

I tried that pinching/compressing thing to see how it was.

I will never do it again.

It hurt like you wouldn't believe and I'm not even speaking of the compression. The pain came from the muscles expelling very forcefully, but because it was closed off, they couldn't have their full range of motion and it felt like it was being ripped apart from the inside out. I even tried the whole 'get reved up, calm down, get reved up, calm down, etc.' and all that did was cause too much heat friction and I already put out a lot of heat just laying down. After an hour of that, it looked like I had washed my hands for 10 minutes in scolding hot water, constantly washing with soap over and over again. It was at the point where you want to scratch you skin because it itches so much, but that only makes it far worse. By the end of first hour, there was pain in all the nerves so bad that I couldn't have sex for over a week because of the nerves being overstimulated.

Never again.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I think it is best to have your channels open so the energy has a place to go. Mantak Chia usually references the Microcosmic Orbit (I will also add Macrocosmic Orbit) as a foundation to other practices, including the semen retention methods. One may also consider learning how to work with the kundalini. To attempt those semen retention methods without any kind of place for the energy to go is to invite pain and suffering. You may even damage your best friend.


mickey

[GeneChing]

Resisting the temptation to say that tiger balm works better for this than cold water. Still resisting, but the urge is so strong...

[mickey]

Gene,

That was a great post.

I'll put it second to your Easter post from a few years ago.


mickey

[phoenixrising]

Mickey,

I spent some time practicing Chia's opening the microcosmic orbit/running the orbit but never seemed to get anywhere so gave it up. Were you successful with it and how long did it take you practicing how long/day?

[mickey]

Hello phoenixrising,

The microcosmic/macrocosmic orbit is not unique to Mantak Chia. somestine you see them referred to as the small heavenly circle and the large (or grand) heavenly circle. If you reread my previous post you will see that I only make reference to his recommendations, not necessarily his methods.

Did I try his method? Yes

I experienced a small success with it. I experienced MUCH better success from an old friend of mine, who taught me the method from a very physical standpoint. The energy for me is REAL and not some imagined stuff. Practice involved meditation in the early am before sunrise. The best I can say to you is to not have any timetable or any preconcieved expectations. Just be consistent with your practice.

If you cannot find a "gate" for small heavenly circle practice instruction, I suggest you explore kundalini instruction. Once the kundalini goes up to the head the energy can be incredibly intense, almost as if your head may explode (the feeling varies from person to person). If this happens to you just bring your tongue to the top of your mouth and allow it to run down the front channel, thusly, establishing the small heavenly circle via kundalini.

Phoenixrising, because of our cosmological positioning, these methods are becoming easier to do. The name you use, interestingly, is a reference to the kundalini energy. Somebody is trying to tell you something.

Dang, did I write this?


mickey

[cjurakpt]

If you cannot find a "gate" for small heavenly circle practice instruction, I suggest you explore kundalini instruction. Once the kundalini goes up to the head the energy can be incredibly intense, almost as if your head may explode (the feeling varies from person to person). If this happens to you just bring your tongue to the top of your mouth and allow it to run down the front channel, thusly, establishing the small heavenly circle via kundalini.

just bear in mind that this is not Microcosmic Orbit cultivation from the classical perspective - the Kundalini pathway in Yogic practice is analagous to the tung mak or central channel in Taoist practice; opening up the central channel is a very different practice from the orbit, and at least from a Taoist perspective the central channel should be worked after the orbit is open, as it is less of a shock to the system this way and the liklihood of negative side effects (e.g. - messing up the autonomics) is less

I am not saying that this is how one has to do it or that it's a better way or that the way metioned above won't work - I am just pointing out that it is mixing two different systems that approach opening the energy centers of the body very differently...

[cjurakpt]

one other thing to consider in regards to retaining semen for purported energy conservation purposes - according to some taoist practice, retaining semen after you have become arroused is worthless, because that semen is already "tainted" by the feeling of sexual desire that caused you to become aroused in the first place - so there is a context to consider here...

my point is that before embarking on what can be a very arduous, not to mention uncomfortable and potentially harmful practice, you might want to be aware that context is very important: in other words, are you living on a mountain top drinking pure water, breathing deeply all day long, eating minimally, sleeping very little, but meditating a lot, having no exposure to daily stress and especially having almost no contact with other people (or their germs)? if so, then the possibility of engaging in semen retention without undergoing sexual arrousal (basically a perturbation of the mind generated by craving , desire and attachemnt) seems plausable, and might actually improve your vitality; in context of everyday life however, it may not make that much of a differnce (aside from decreasing the amount of time of your refractory period)

[mickey]

Hi cjurakpt,

The kundalini can go up the spine as well and I have experienced it as such. The tongue to the roof was presented as a safety valve. I offered it because I have had the experience. There has been recent looks at taoist methods by kundalini practitioners; in particular, in the use of the front channel to bring the kundalini energy downward as a means to prevent problems. I used this method on my own in an emergency situation (not knowing that others were exploring it). I offered the method to phoenixrising because I suggested kundalini practice and I do not want this person to get hurt from it.

I do not know if you have studied yoga or not. Much of the practice involves the straightening of the spine for the flow of kundalini energy.

mickey

[sanjuro_ronin]

What is natural?
Don't go against the natural order of things, Taoists should know better.

[phoenixrising]

Mickey,

thanks for the response. Could you expand on the physical method your old friend taught you?- you can pm me if you prefer. There is actually a kundalini yoga school, Yoga West, not that far from me that offers a free class every morning at like 4:30am or somesuch ridiculously early hour. I went there once or twice years ago (hard to get up that early but u can go to later classes but they're not free)- it is run by Sikh's- they wear white turbans.

Their website is www.yogawestla.com -what do you think?

[cjurakpt]

The kundalini can go up the spine as well and I have experienced it as such.

if you mean up what is considered the governance vessel from a taoist perspective, well, i certainly don't disagree that it's possible, but it does not appear to be the nrm for that approach - my understanding of yogic practice, basic as it is, is that the chakras are organised along the central line through the body, so this is what is typically worked with; hence my comment that it was not the same as the classically described microcosmic revolution pathway

The tongue to the roof was presented as a safety valve. I offered it because I have had the experience. There has been recent looks at taoist methods by kundalini practitioners; in particular, in the use of the front channel to bring the kundalini energy downward as a means to prevent problems. I used this method on my own in an emergency situation (not knowing that others were exploring it). I offered the method to phoenixrising because I suggested kundalini practice and I do not want this person to get hurt from it.

again, agreed - the tongue is a good way to "drain" excess build up in the head (I would say that, from a physiological perspective, it acts on the autonomics by increasing parasympathetic tone, aactivating it via the stomatognathic system); in fact, people have in the past come to my teacher having sent the kundalini up, but not having brought it back down, and having experienced things like aggitation, headaches, insomnia, etc., and he has worked with them along the lines that you describe; this is not a critique of kundalini practice, BTW, just relaying what my experience has been

I do not know if you have studied yoga or not. Much of the practice involves the straightening of the spine for the flow of kundalini energy

again, my classical yogic practice per se is minimal; in taoist practice, the spine is also held straight, but not rigid (which, i think many yogic practitioners do mistakenly - I don't believe that there is anything in correct yoga practice that advocates rigidity; in contrast, I've seen some qigong practitioners do equally strange things with the hips and pelvis); I think that the key is to understand the natural position of the spine, as a structural manifestation of liquid waveform properties, always in motion, allowing the head to ride ontop of it ike a ball supported on a column of water...