The downfall of Traditional Gung Fu

[nospam]

sounds like you might want to turn to bak hsing

seriously, forms do not need to be least important in a curriculum, one needs to remember they are a tool amongst many. TCMA especially CLF went hog wild on forms. too much emphasis is placed on forms without application in real life situations.

that is interesting Frank. your sifu did not drill techniques or teach applications? the students just got together and sparred?

nospam

[David Jamieson]

TCMA is fine. It's even better when it is trained in a realistic atmosphere at levels that everyone is capable of comprehending.

[nospam]

hey Dave, How goes? Long time no se...er read

hope all is well with you and yours.

here is a clip about change - it's a very interesting listen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmrX3VfG1ZQ

..change can be many different things..

nospam

[hskwarrior]

the only think sifu dino ever did was drill basic punches, kicks. but never any applications, never any kind of drills except two man spar forms.

yeah, we used to sparr alot and very wildly. eventually we began to understand our gung fu in a different manner. discovering it for yourself is a method of learning that i find interesting. yeah you can show me how to use gung fu, but if i don't own my gung fu i will always be doing YOUR gung fu.

and buk sing is hung sing so i'd be in the same place.

[hskwarrior]

thinking about it, because i was taugt to own my gung fu, the only one that can make it work for me is.....me. but when i used to get into street fights i always came back as said "i did this, sifu.....where and how did i do that?" then he would ask me to do these moves from one of my sets and show me thats where that is.

but we always applied our gung fu with fighting in mind, and so our PERFORMING was lacking. you can see in our hands we're not playing, but we sacrificed looking nice for effectiveness. that means searching for what doesn't work for you, and learning to make it work.

for myself, since im OG and in that rare group of loyal dedicated students with passion for what they do, i personally feel good about how i was trained. did i wish we hit focus mits, thai pads, or even drill applications.......hell yeah. my classmates and i came up with things to workout.

still, sifu dino learned the same way, and i guess that was type of secret method of training. i guess. but when compared to MMA........yeah we lacked big time in regards to drilling, and applications. but we weren't structured that well and organized either. but im adding in what i feel we never possessed in the first place with my own group of students.

but because sifu dino know how to fight with his clf, we got some of his best. i learned from him when he was my age.......young, still street saavy, hardcore, and at times very gangster. since i came from the streets, this kind of person was respected.

do i have any regrets in my learning from sifu dino...........no.....not at all. got alot of the knowledge from a young sifu dino, now he is old and not that hardcore anymore. signs of getting old i guess.

[nospam]

yin with the yang brother

nospam

[The Xia]

So long as there are good sifus and good students, TCMA will survive.
And MMA guys do train different material then TCMA. MMA is pretty much a style based on bits of Boxing, Greco-Roman wrestling, Muay Thai, BJJ, and maybe some Judo. That's where they draw their curriculum from (with some exceptions and give or take a few arts). And I don't usually see them training those arts completely either (maybe with BJJ as an exception). I don't know about you, but I've never seen MMA guys condition their shins against banana trees like Muai Thai guys do.
The style of MMA was a response to a venue. I notice that there are two commonalities in the styles that MMA draws from.
1) They are styles that didn’t have as much baggage as others. What I mean by “baggage” is all the fakes and people who can’t really use their art.
2) They are all sport arts.
That leads me to conclude that MMA, being a sport, drew from sport arts. And that the baggage of TCMA and TJMA (with the exception of Judo), and other TMAs, lead people to believe that it was all useless. When in reality, that baggage is not a true representation of the arts.
Now that MMA is here, I think it’s being successfully marketed and going mainstream. And with that, anti-TMA sentiment will continue to grow.
Facing this wave of anti-TMA sentiment, I think traditionalists should continue to do what has always worked for them and not worry what some MMA people think.
I think what hskwarrior described just now is a traditional style of teaching. If the student shows initiative, he learns to use his Kung Fu. If not, that's his problem.
The world where TCMA came from had lots of violence, so people that trained with a sifu were generally there to learn to fight. Today, where people don't face that kind of violence, fewer people are at kwoons to learn to fight. Therefore, fewer students will take it upon themselves to drill and learn how to use their Kung Fu. But there will always be some that do. So even with that traditional teaching method, Kung Fu can live on. However, if a sifu wants to have more then just a select few of his students able to use their Kung Fu, he can make sure they all drill. Basically, doing what hskwarrior (and many other sifus) are doing.

[hskwarrior]

anyways,

one of the things im trying to do with my gung fu is dvd's now. when it comes to applications, im gonna show the classical approach, but then show how it should be applied due to this error or that one in regards to usage.

all i've ever seen aside from the laceys is classical applications....or how they're done in the set.......but unfortunately real life confrontations are not that predictable. so we train for every possible aspect, and attempt to keep it real as possible. so im gonna show how we'd use it realistically.

like unless you are striking while turning your back........i would never teach my students to turn their backs against someone. like the video of that guy running away......what an effin shame on clf.

peace

[hskwarrior]

xia,

you wanna know something funny? even mma pratice their own forms of forms....they do things repeatedly over and over again, whether with or without someone. they are more similar to us than they realize.....they just train for sport.


you know, in real life combat you can't afford mistakes. just look at the military......they train very little skills but it helps them survive if attacked. they ma they apply is to kill......which is going to take on a different appearance.

[The Xia]

I think that one of the aspects about making the Kung Fu your own is discovering that there is more then one application for a given movement and figuring out which ones work best for you.

[hskwarrior]

exactly.

see, fu pow is almost 7 feet tall. i'm only 5'7". although we may have learned the same techniques, how its going to be applied changes due to the size difference. what works for me isn't going to work for him the same way. that's why i love choy lee fut, everything is so flexible in regards to applications.

owning your gung fu should be everyone's goal. some only thrive on mimmicking their sifu's. i did the same until i began to own my gung fu. being open minded like this is good for students because a sifu can show them more than one way to make it work, but also show him or her how to own it. once you own it, no one can tell you different because only you know what works for YOU and what doesn't.

[The Xia]

xia,

you wanna know something funny? even mma pratice their own forms of forms....they do things repeatedly over and over again, whether with or without someone. they are more similar to us than they realize.....they just train for sport.


you know, in real life combat you can't afford mistakes. just look at the military......they train very little skills but it helps them survive if attacked. they ma they apply is to kill......which is going to take on a different appearance.

exactly.

see, fu pow is almost 7 feet tall. i'm only 5'7". although we may have learned the same techniques, how its going to be applied changes due to the size difference. what works for me isn't going to work for him the same way. that's why i love choy lee fut, everything is so flexible in regards to applications.

owning your gung fu should be everyone's goal. some only thrive on mimmicking their sifu's. i did the same until i began to own my gung fu. being open minded like this is good for students because a sifu can show them more than one way to make it work, but also show him or her how to own it. once you own it, no one can tell you different because only you know what works for YOU and what doesn't.

I've argued that set combinations of punches that boxers train are their versions of forms. Of course, this idea has been rejected by lots of MMA forum types.
I think what you said summarizes why we should continue what we're doing in spite of what MMA is doing. We know what Kung Fu is designed for (fighting in situations where life is on the line) and other benefits it yields (like health, fun, etc). If we have what we want, there is no need to change what we are doing. All of the bad teachers and false information creates a lot of confusion. Because of this, many people want the wrong things out of martial arts. And many people who want the right things don’t know how or where to get it. But if you know what’s what, there is no need to worry about what some MMA guys think about what you do. That’s the way I see it.

[hskwarrior]

again exactly

if a mma striker got into his fighting stance and repeatedly practiced jab, hook, uppercut, uppercut, diagnal elbow, reverse elbow, jab jab jab........then turned to the right and repeated the same sequence and then did so in other directions, then they are in fact practicing forms. MMA style forms which don't exist technically, but the drill it over and over again.

in fact, i'd like to see some non-descript set of movements from mma techniques and then apply them to how we do our forms. im sure they would notice that they've been practicing MMA style forms all along.

imagine those combo's i just mentioned and then do them in different directions. must be interesting to see imo.

hsk

[David Jamieson]

hey Dave, How goes? Long time no se...er read

hope all is well with you and yours.

here is a clip about change - it's a very interesting listen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmrX3VfG1ZQ

..change can be many different things..

nospam

Hey Naya!

Yeah, haven't peeped on any of your posts for a while. you just come outta a coma or something?

I could barely understand that vid, sound was wonky. I'll give it a go on my other system at work.

Hows by you anyway? Still training until collapse and or nausea? That's the way!

cheers

[Water Dragon]

Ross pretty much hit the nail in the head.

Also, for some reason a lot of CMA guys think tradition and evolution are mutually exclusive concepts. I don't see it this way.