The downfall of Traditional Gung Fu

[SevenStar]

I am surprised by the interest in MMA. Whats going to be nexted? Training to be gladiators in Coliseums? fighting against Lions? Where is the Art? Kung Fu is not just about Killing, it's a civilised endeavour. When you spar with someone, you quickly realised how good you are against your opponent, why need to draw blood and bring it to the floor? You are bringing MA back hundreds of years back to the old cavemen times.

What you consider art is individual, dude. fighting IS art. I always use my buddy and I as an example. We have had all of the same teachers except for one, since 1996 (we had different teachers as kids before we knew eachother, but since we didn't know eachother then, I don't count it.) We are the same age, same height and similar weight. Yet, we fight COMPLETELY different. Why? We express ourselves differently using the same techniques of the arts we have trained. That expression, that individuality IS art. A spinning back kick KO, a perfectly executed uchi mata - it's all art, probably moreso than forms, because forms are set - there is not as much room for self expression.

[stout]

And why is he being so much more secretive? I can kill a person with muay thai, just as someone could with cma. Heck, I could probably do it easier.

They don't want to teach you too much, unless you can prove you are not a drop in. Real Traditional schools require loyalty etc It can be tough sometimes to get a sifu to teach you. You are not just talking about technique within bounds of sport, I meant the essence of a system. A good schools would do a lot of weapons too, it could take 5 -10+ years to master. The idea would be if you can't beat them with just your bare hands, go back and choose your weapon - hence martial art.

[SevenStar]

They don't want to teach you too much, unless you can prove you are not a drop in. Real Traditional schools require loyalty etc It can be tough sometimes to get a sifu to teach you. You are not just talking about technique within bounds of sport, I meant the essence of a system. A good schools would do a lot of weapons too, it could take 5 -10+ years to master. The idea would be if you can't beat them with just your bare hands, go back and choose your weapon - hence martial art.

is the essence not the footwork and basics? in response to time, in general, it can take a person 6 - 10 years to get a black belt in bjj. a sport art.

[stout]

true. There's probably abit more than just hand and foot basics. Depending on how smart & fanatical you are, you might figure some your self, others you need to be shown.

In my experience I find that martial artists in sports circle are a lot more open in giving advice on using technique. Maybe it's because speed & strength counts so much more in competition, so there aren't that many secrets.

[hskwarrior]

speed and strenght are great but i feel as well as others do that condition is the major part here. if you can't last, then hey?

i've seen big guys come out first round all out against a smaller person. this happens many times. the smaller person waits and takes what the bigger guy has, then during the next two rounds chops the bigger guy down and eventually wins.

[bredmond812]

I think another factor is that it takes a long time to build up in TCMA. I cant say for MMA, but TCMA is not just knowledge, it is also skill and conditioning. You can be shown everything up front, but it wont do you much good. You have to practice it and also build up the strength.

For example, in Chen Taijiquan, my instructor told me i have train the form before i could push hands, because it builds up the qi and sensitivity and i can learn what peng, lu, ji, an is otherwise i wont understand what is happening during pushhands. And before i even do the form, i have to do zhan zhuang/ mabu. Continuing with taiji as an example, if you havent built up the skill from pushhands, when you do taiji sanshou, it wont be taiji sanshou. You might win, but it wont be taiji, and you might as well just do normal sanshou.

No sense in rushing things, if you dont have one level, you cannot move on to the next, or else you will just fall apart.

B Red

[stout]

Continuing with taiji as an example, if you havent built up the skill from pushhands, when you do taiji sanshou, it wont be taiji sanshou. You might win, but it wont be taiji, and you might as well just do normal sanshou.
B Red

Have you seen Tai Chi guys fight for real?

This is somewhat enigmatic to me but I have always wondered how the mind training for Tai Chi would do for you under real tense situatuions. There's a guy in the UK back in the 80s who learnt tai chi in HK and aparently did quite well in touraments.

[SevenStar]

Have you seen Tai Chi guys fight for real?

This is somewhat enigmatic to me but I have always wondered how the mind training for Tai Chi would do for you under real tense situatuions. There's a guy in the UK back in the 80s who learnt tai chi in HK and aparently did quite well in touraments.

just like any other style, it depends on how you train. We had a fellow bouncer who trained taiji - he got mauled. However, there are guys like william chen's son who do fairly well on the san shou circuits.

[SevenStar]

I think another factor is that it takes a long time to build up in TCMA. I cant say for MMA, but TCMA is not just knowledge, it is also skill and conditioning. You can be shown everything up front, but it wont do you much good. You have to practice it and also build up the strength.

that applies to everything. But with sport styles, you are doing ALL of that SIMULTANEOUSLY from jump street. You don't train forms for two years, then start training iron palm. you do your training and conditioning at the same time.

For example, in Chen Taijiquan, my instructor told me i have train the form before i could push hands, because it builds up the qi and sensitivity and i can learn what peng, lu, ji, an is otherwise i wont understand what is happening during pushhands. And before i even do the form, i have to do zhan zhuang/ mabu. Continuing with taiji as an example, if you havent built up the skill from pushhands, when you do taiji sanshou, it wont be taiji sanshou. You might win, but it wont be taiji, and you might as well just do normal sanshou.

No sense in rushing things, if you dont have one level, you cannot move on to the next, or else you will just fall apart.

B Red

see, that is what I am talking about. In bjj, you will roll within the first week. You won't understand ANY of what is going on, but you are getting exposed to it. As you train, you begin to understand. consequently, you are getting the knowledge, the skill and the conditioning all at the same time. same thing for judo and muay thai.

[bredmond812]

Have you seen Tai Chi guys fight for real?

This is somewhat enigmatic to me but I have always wondered how the mind training for Tai Chi would do for you under real tense situatuions. There's a guy in the UK back in the 80s who learnt tai chi in HK and aparently did quite well in touraments.

My teacher had some vids of Chen Xiaowang doing some Taiji Sanshou with some other people who I dont know. It looks interesting, but it wasnt a real fight. Nobody was trying to seriously hurt the other person. Just like tournaments arent the same as real fighting. I have only seen one real real fights, except for a few execptions caught on film on youtube. I have seen a pushhands tournament on youtube. It almost reminded me of shuai jiao tournaments.

What tournaments did he participate in?

[bredmond812]

that applies to everything. But with sport styles, you are doing ALL of that SIMULTANEOUSLY from jump street. You don't train forms for two years, then start training iron palm. you do your training and conditioning at the same time.



see, that is what I am talking about. In bjj, you will roll within the first week. You won't understand ANY of what is going on, but you are getting exposed to it. As you train, you begin to understand. consequently, you are getting the knowledge, the skill and the conditioning all at the same time. same thing for judo and muay thai.

Yeah, both methods have their strenghts and drawbacks. I think they are both valid, depending on the system. I dont think Taiji can be trained differently, and i dont think that BJJ or Judo can be done differently. I could see Muay Thai going either way, but really, i never trained Muay Thai, so i dont know.

[stout]

What tournaments did he participate in?

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/informa...gladiator.html

I think it's an interview of him by combat magazine in the UK, so not sure of its credibilty.

[bredmond812]

started reading it. It is kind of long and i have my last two finals tomorrow, so i will have to read it on friday or later. One thing i noticed was that the article said that Taiji came from Wudan(g). To my knowledge, most taiji people, including my instructor claim that Taiji was created at Chenjiagou in Henan province. I think this wudang story comes from the Nanjing reports claiming external = shaolin, internal = wudang.

B Red