The downfall of Traditional Gung Fu

**Eddie** · 05-10-2007, 08:20 AM

I understand. But again, its more about skill and the ability to apply your skill.
Im not questining anyones ability either, merely speaking hypothetically.

BTW (slightly off topic) about two issues back, there was an artickle in kung fu magazine on how to stregnthen your back fist. I have been doing those drills that the guy showed there, and I must say I am seeing good results.

**hskwarrior** · 05-10-2007, 08:26 AM

Skill Is Skill Eddie. People Work Hard For That.

But, Those People With The Skill Also Understand That There Is More Than One Way To Execute A Said Technique Because Each And Every Person Is Going To Be Different.

Eddie, I Hope You Never Take Anyone For Granted. Some Martial Artists Are So Sure They Know What They Are Talking About And Get Caught Sleeping. I Don't Think This Of You, But Keep An Open Mind About Everything In Martial Arts.

I Know You Are (open Minded) Cuz You're Adding In Chow Keung's Gung Fu Or Supplimenting It With Yours. Thats Great.

I Hope You See What Im Referring To. Im Not Sure You Do Though.

**Eddie** · 05-10-2007, 09:01 AM

no no no, I understand what you are saying. Im also not taking anything for granted. Im actually always happy even with little bits and pieces. The very last person to take things for granted.

But there is only one way to get better at fighting, and thats by actually practicing it.

The comments I made about excuses was mostly hinted towards myself. Im often quick to make excuses about my own (dis)abilities

.

as for fighting, Im also probably more inclined towards competition san shou, as that is where my interest lies. Street fighting is all cool and that, but frankly, I have had more than enough of that for now. I enjoy Competition San Shou because of the rules, and as I have said before, I can still use my CLF without compromising much on application.

Perhaps you're just not reading my post with the intend I have in mind. Perhaps you just need a good azz kicking by me

what do you say? you going to fly down here, or must I come over to your hood to show you whos the bozz?

**hskwarrior** · 05-10-2007, 09:10 AM

I Would Love To Focus On San Shou And Stuff. But Unfortunately Every Where You Turn Out Here In The Bay Area You Have To Be On Your Toes. People Are Stressed Out Here, And Anything Can Trigger It Off.

For Example, A Guy Once Cut Me Off On The Freeway And Slowed The Eff Down Considerably In The Fast Lane. I Changed Lanes And Got In Front Of Him. Once I Did That He Began To Harrass Me On The Road. He Pulled Off The Freeway And Followed Me And My Girl. We Pulled Into A Blockbuster I Got Out The Car. When The Guy Saw I Was Kinda Big.....he Took Off In A Hurry.....my Girl Can Verify That. It Was Funny Cus He Thought He Was Going To Do Something. And That Story Is On The Lighter Side Of Things.

Getting Into A Street Fight Here Can Happen At Any Time For Any Reason. So If You AreN'T Up To The Threat At The Drop Of A Dime, You Are Going To Be On The Losing End. So Street Fighting Is A Reality Here. But I Try To Keep My Guys From Getting Into Them.

**hskwarrior** · 05-10-2007, 09:11 AM

Lmao........

Come To My Hood Eddie. You May Even Stay............its A Nice Place, But You Just Have To Keep Your Eyes Open And Your Wits About You.

Aside From That......you May Never Want To Leave Eddie.

I Need An Azz Whoopin.........thanks Man For The Offer:d

**Eddie** · 05-10-2007, 09:17 AM

Dont you hate street violence?!

Lucky we dont have those kind of problems down here

**Eddie** · 05-10-2007, 09:22 AM

I'd love to live in the USA. You guys have all the cool stuff there.
Sadly Im stuck in this godforsaken place it seems.
I was soooo looking forward to today. Sifu Chow's student from China was coming down here today. Hes also into san shou and would have been an awsome training partner. Sadly, local immigration denied the poor boy access to our country and only blamed it on incorrect administration. He filled out the wrong form, and although he had a valid visa, the stubborn customs official enjoyed the little power trip he was on. But so are the days of our lives ....

**hskwarrior** · 05-10-2007, 09:23 AM

Yeah, One Side Of Me Hates Street Violence And Wishes I Could Move To A Quieter Place Where There's Not Soooo Much Drama.

But Since This Is The Environment I Grew Up In And All I Know.......one Side Of Me Keeps An Eye On The Street.

Until Now, Most Of My Friends Were Thugs, Gangsters, Dealers, Or Just Plain Street Fighters.

But Even They've Come To See The Light About Getting Out Of This Environment. Since I Began Seriously Teaching, I Don't Want Tooo Much Of That Lifestyle To Stick Around. But I Do Still At Times Like To See A Good Street Fight......as Long As Its Just A Fight And No Weapons, Or Death.

But Until This World Becomes Peaceful.........i Can't Drop My Guard.

**Fu-Pow** · 05-10-2007, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Eddie

not being closed minded at all. if anything ...

I once had a sparring partner who was much shorter than me. He wasnt limited in application at all.

All im saying is, that I dont think its fair to use that as an excuse. I would want to use the excuse that im twice the size of ... say CLFNole ... thats why I cant be as fast as him? Or my stances wouldnt be as solid as his' just because im three times heavier?

Is that not just making excuses?

Amen brother. As a big guy in MA you are kind of screwed in people's perception of you as a fighter. If you win it's because you are big. If you lose its because the smaller guy had skill. It could never be that you are big and you had skill.

I think its a way for smaller guys to save their egos when they lose.

Also it doesn't take into account all the other factors in winning and losing like timing, speed, strength, endurance, attitude, strategy, etc.

**SevenStar** · 05-10-2007, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by The Xia

There are also plenty of sifus out there that do know how to use their Kung Fu. Plenty of sifus have sparred and have students that spar. And there are sifus around that have experienced street fighting.

sparring is not the same as testing yourself.

The striking that I see from most MMA isn’t that great. It’s also usually limited to a few basic punches and kicks. However, some are excellent grapplers. That’s what I see.

I see a lot of sub par cma striking as well, but that's not my point. the point is that when you watch san shou, you see jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts, etc. just as in mma. they use the same basic striking.

Perhaps not in MMA formats. But there are venues like San Shou and Lei-Tai that TCMA compete in.

there are venues, but nowhere near as many. if they had similar demand as mma, meaning a similar number of competitors, you would see more venues.

Wouldn’t you want to keep the filling to continue moving to the bottom so that the striking surface gets gradually harder?

not necessarily. they have to condition the hands as well.

And what about the pipes I mentioned?

fwiw, I used to do a three star drill on a concrete pillar that was in our old school, and hit my forearms with kali sticks. however, from an mma and muay thai standpoint, it is not necessary - they don't do forearm strikes.

Despite the fact that both arts have been used for other purposes, if I'm not mistaken, Muay Thai as a sport is ancient and Judo has been a sport since its inception. And what do you mean “too deadly”? It’s well known that the styles I mentioned were designed to kill and cripple.

they have fought muay thai for ages- the soldiers did it for various reasons - but it wasn't officially a sport until 1920. and that is exactly what I mean by "too deadly" - what it was designed for eventually became a scapegoat for some people.

How can you be sure of that?

notice there was never really any tma vs grappling or mma talk until rorion started using the statistic that 80 percent of fights go to the ground. it seems tma took offense, and that is when it got started, or at least became noticeable.

**hskwarrior** · 05-10-2007, 11:27 AM

I'm Not Sure Tma Got Offended By The Going To The Floor Comment.

At Least I Didn't. In Street Fights It Usually Does Go To The Floor.....and Then Some Fights Are Over So Fast That No Time To Hit The Floor. Except For The One Knocked Out. If You Are A Martial Artist And Ignore That Fact, Then You Are Going To Be The One Knocked Out.

Being Able To Throw A Punch Isn't The Easiest Thing To Do......as Teacher I See Novices Always Throwing Punches That Can Hurt Themselves First.
Learning To Strike The Right Way Takes Time.

Now,

Forearm Strikes Are A Big Part Of Choy Lee Fut. Some Think Its Just Aimed At The Head. But In Clf We Use Forearm Strikes To The Torso, The The Head, To The Arms, Legs And So Forth. We Train To Have Tough Forearms Much The Way Muay Thai Would Their Legs.

However, The Real Issue Is This............if Tcma Trained The Way We Should Have....long Ago..........then Mma Would Be Filled With All Types Of Tcma Fighters. Real Tcma Fighters Realize That More Than 50% Of Our Gung Fu Gets Thrown Out For Being Non Effective In Today's World.

It Doesn't Matter If You Have 200 Hand Forms.........there Are Only So Many Ways To Punch, Kick, Block, Throw........and So On..........so My Sifu Always Told Me To Pick At Least 7 Different Basice Techniques And Master Those.

I Think One Of The Reasons Why Tcma Tends To Look More Like Kick Boxing In The Heat Of The Moment, Is Because You Haven't Trained To Use Your Gung Fu Realistically And Were Brainwashed By The Mumbo Jumbo Of Fancy And Difficult Techniques......if You Were To Train Realistically Then You Would Realize That Only Part Of Your System Actually Works As It Should.

Tcma People Today Are Still Amonst The Mindset Of "throw A Punch At My Nose With Your Left Hand. Use It In A Jab, And Do It On The Count Of 3." .....................when Tcma People Say "just Throw Anything And I Will React Accordingly" Then We Will Start Entering The Mma Scene. Too Many People Depending On The "style" To Get You Thru......when Its The Fighter Using The Style.

The Fighter Absorbs The Style And Incorporates It Into What He Naturally Does..........you Should Never Become The Style. I Think Tcma Hasn't Gotten Past This Yet.

**SevenStar** · 05-11-2007, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by hskwarrior

Being Able To Throw A Punch Isn't The Easiest Thing To Do......as Teacher I See Novices Always Throwing Punches That Can Hurt Themselves First.
Learning To Strike The Right Way Takes Time.

agreed.

Forearm Strikes Are A Big Part Of Choy Lee Fut.

which is why the conditioning xia mentioned is pertinent to you guys, but for us, not so much.

It Doesn't Matter If You Have 200 Hand Forms.........there Are Only So Many Ways To Punch, Kick, Block, Throw........and So On..........so My Sifu Always Told Me To Pick At Least 7 Different Basice Techniques And Master Those.

definitely. my judo coach told me something similar. become intimately familiar with one throw for each direction of off balance - 8 throws - and of those 8, have three as your bread and butter throws.

I Think One Of The Reasons Why Tcma Tends To Look More Like Kick Boxing In The Heat Of The Moment, Is Because You Haven't Trained To Use Your Gung Fu Realistically And Were Brainwashed By The Mumbo Jumbo Of Fancy And Difficult Techniques......if You Were To Train Realistically Then You Would Realize That Only Part Of Your System Actually Works As It Should.

bingo. basics are key.

**Sal Canzonieri** · 05-11-2007, 09:47 AM

The gun was considered the downfall of all martial arts, and that's why the emphasis shifted to martial arts for health.

For the average person doing martial arts, they aren't going to encounter anything that dangerous in their lifetime, so they practice martial arts for staying fit and relaxing.

Always in martial arts history those that needed more than that, learned more than that.

I don't understand this new hatred against forms, I mean all they are is a method to memorize the movements, you never were supposed to learn forms and not do applications and drills, they are two sides of one coin.

I think the main reason people aren't being taught to use the moves in their forms correctly is that teachers are afraid of getting sued if a student gets hurt.

Plus, its up to you to deeply ponder the movements and see what works with them. The teacher can't do anything for you if you don't take the time to work with the forms you learn and see what makes them tick.

Where is your effort? I think the teacher is responsible to teach you correct body mechanics, first and formost, then strategy via forms, then some application to open your eyes to possibilities. There are hundreds of application per movement in each form. After that point, it is up to you ONLY to use the movements and analyze them and make them natural to you so that you can bring out countless applications to them.

I think the problem today is laziness.

MMA is no miracle stuff, there isn't anything that they teach in MMA that hasn't already been taught in traditional MA everywhere.

I'm sure that once the get bored of the hard work involved in MMA, people will drop it too, like they do with everything.

I have seen this happening every 3 years since I first started doing martial arts in the 1970s.
A year of people finding out "something new and better" and then a year of everyone joining, and a year of people dropping out one by one as it becomes hard work to keep it up.
There has been the equivalent to MMA since way back then, always something new coming along to "speed up" learning how to fight without forms:
Jimmy Woo's San Soo, JKD, and on an on.
But always, those that really understand traditional martial arts and what almost 5,000 years of development is conveying, always are still there.

All I know, I have used traditional martial arts (CMA) since the 70s in self defense all over the world, and it never failed me.

**mantis108** · 05-11-2007, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri

The gun was considered the downfall of all martial arts, and that's why the emphasis shifted to martial arts for health.

Well, gun isn't the downfall of all martial arts. If it's so, we (TCMA) wouldn't have to deal with Judo, BJJ, MMA, or even San Shou, remember these are benchmark testing ground for effective hand to hand combat that came AFTER the advent of firearms. The real problem is that irresponsible TCMA teachers that hide behind excuses (ie firearms) and misdirection (ie psuedo-philosophy). The fact is TCMA devolved instead of evolve.

For the average person doing martial arts, they aren't going to encounter anything that dangerous in their lifetime, so they practice martial arts for staying fit and relaxing.

This is mainly a problem of consumerism in TCMA. I don't want to put the blame solely on Bruce Lee but in the North American market all the new generation Kung Fu or TMA guys had a little JKD complex in them if you ask me no small thanks to the on and off screen successes of Bruce. He has become a large than life legend that all Kung Fu or TMA guys secretly or openly idolize or fantazied to become. People don't generally come to TMA for fitness. They thought they are coming to get a self preservation insurance policy. It is the irresponsible teachers that convince them that they should be getting a fitness and fantasy plan which will carry them all the way to retirement [and of course they have to pay a long term contrat for that].

Always in martial arts history those that needed more than that, learned more than that.

People in general don't understand the difference between arts and crafts. You get crafts from McDojo and Mckwoon. Crafts is about comfort zone and conforming. Arts is about transcending and non confornming. Arts is also about thousands of failures before one success. You won't have a business if you sell arts.

I don't understand this new hatred against forms, I mean all they are is a method to memorize the movements, you never were supposed to learn forms and not do applications and drills, they are two sides of one coin.

Most people don't understand the heart and soul (or keys) to the system. They see a form and they see patterns of movements. They don't see meaning of a form - strategic advantage of patterns of movement (tactics) from the style's attribute (technical keys) point of view. This problem is definitely the low quality of teachers in TCMA.

I think the main reason people aren't being taught to use the moves in their forms correctly is that teachers are afraid of getting sued if a student gets hurt.

Yet another excuse to hide inexperience in fighting and teaching. No one has sued Judo, BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai, MMA, or San Shou schools for that matter in North America yet. They have their "athletes" go as hard as they can and we have seen injuries that are career ending. Now of course, we can argue that they don't teach dirty tactics such as eye gouging and such but realistically, you won't have much student left if you do spar that way all the time. But is it really impossible to take out all the "dangerous" techniques in your style and allow the style to be effective? Look at Judo, it took out most of the "dangerous" techniques from Ju Jitsu and remains effective. There really is no valid excuse for TCMA to hold onto those so called dangerous techniques and refuses to evolve.

Plus, its up to you to deeply ponder the movements and see what works with them. The teacher can't do anything for you if you don't take the time to work with the forms you learn and see what makes them tick.

It's not about the patterns of movements (tactics) not even the strategy for that matter. It's in the attribute (technical keys) of the style. The teacher must know how to training the specific attributes of the style (ie striker strikes, grappler grapples, etc). To borrow a JKD concept term, it is the attribute training and the energy drills that are important. Those are the key areas that make a style work.

Where is your effort? I think the teacher is responsible to teach you correct body mechanics, first and formost, then strategy via forms, then some application to open your eyes to possibilities. There are hundreds of application per movement in each form. After that point, it is up to you ONLY to use the movements and analyze them and make them natural to you so that you can bring out countless applications to them.

I am sorry, the above statement is just where the problem begins. While it is true that there are myriad of applications and counters to any given movement, fighting is a subtle science and exact art that doesn't simply always revolve around that line of thinking. This is where conditioning (athleticism) and attribute training come in. It's not about conforming through reasoned or scripted responses. It's about spontaneous exchange of information in energy form. Phyiscal confrontations usually evolve without a script and the energy evolves as well.

IMHO a good TCMA teacher does not need forms (routines) to teach fighitng. He needs personal experiences in fighting and in understanding the style specific attribute training to teach fighting ideal through a game format but definitely not solo repetition of finite techniques, meaningness tactics or hollow strategy.

[quoteI think the problem today is laziness.[/quote]

that I agree 120%

MMA is no miracle stuff, there isn't anything that they teach in MMA that hasn't already been taught in traditional MA everywhere.

I also totally agree with this.

I'm sure that once the get bored of the hard work involved in MMA, people will drop it too, like they do with everything.

MMA, like many other martial sports, it has a clear defined goal and a well develop game format. TCMA can do that if it develops a "game". If you want to say Chin Na is the best game of your style, then you should be able to use Chin Na against a resistive opponent no matter what he or she does. If it's a combination of striking, kicking, throwing, and grappling (like Mantis does), well great, get a format that has all those. You don't feel like calling it UFC, Pride, NHB, call it whatever as long as you are using all those that you claim is what your style is about (without the damaging or lethal stuff of course).

I have seen this happening every 3 years since I first started doing martial arts in the 1970s.
A year of people finding out "something new and better" and then a year of everyone joining, and a year of people dropping out one by one as it becomes hard work to keep it up.
There has been the equivalent to MMA since way back then, always something new coming along to "speed up" learning how to fight without forms:
Jimmy Woo's San Soo, JKD, and on an on.
But always, those that really understand traditional martial arts and what almost 5,000 years of development is conveying, always are still there.

All I know, I have used traditional martial arts (CMA) since the 70s in self defense all over the world, and it never failed me.

That's great about you and your stuff. But what about your students? Could they all use that? We have seen or heard of tone of good fighters in TCMA but is much success in the ring for these good fighter's students or grand students? I am not questioning your ability to teach but it's not a model that is common to most TCMA. Hell, there just isn't a standard in TCMA for all we know. So...

Warm regards,

Mantis108

**The Xia** · 05-11-2007, 01:01 PM