"洪洞通臂" Hong Dong Tong Bei & Shaolin

[Sal Canzonieri]

Does anyone have any information about "洪洞通臂" Hong Dong Tong Bei from Shanxi province?

(Hong Dong is the Shanxi city where the Chen family originates from by the way)

I am looking for as much info as possible about the style.
When was it created?

What is it's relationship to Tong Bei Quan?

I understand that Hong Dong Tong Bei is simply called Long Fist there, or Wuji Coiling Boxing.

Also I have heard conjecture that Shaolin Hong Quan originated in Shanxi (arriving at Shaolin via Bai Yu Feng and Li Sou) and thus maybe derived from Hong Dong Tong Bei.
Anyone read anything about this?

Shanxi province also has the Hong Quan style that is known as Red Fist, which is different from the Flowing (or Flood) Fist Hong Quan.
Does anyone have any information about this other Hong Quan as well?

[mantis108]

I elaborated what I have shared on a Mantis forum to address your questions in general.

Creation myths in Kung Fu are often meant to address the obscured beginning of the styles. This happens a lot because Chinese history isn't as peaceful and straight forward as most history books would want you to believe. There are long periods of chaotic and random chances which encouraged proliferation of systems and styles often for enconomic or survive reasons. A long story short, Northern Mantis in Shandong, like many other martial arts that come into exsitence arround late Ming and through Qing dynasty, is IMHO indeed a northern adepation of southern methodology.

IMHO there are 2 main pugilistic traditions in China. These traditions were used in training military and para-military (ie militia, militant cult, etc...) I am sure there are many others that go under the radar; however, the two traditions that I am putting forward are better documented than most. So we will have to bear in mind that we do not disregard oral traditions but we need more that just that to draw a more accurate picture of early martial arts.

It is believed that Tongbi (through the arms), which is also known as Changquan (Long fist) methodology, has a long history going back to the times of Spring-Autuum and Warring-States period. There are some evidences to suggest that it was the preferred method for training the troops during Song dynasty (960 - 1279 CE). Tongbi and Changquan are interchangeable designations IMHO since it is common in Chinese culture to call one thing with different names. Tongbi would have been a more formal or academic name; while Changquan would have been a popular usage amongst martial artists (ie Song Taizu and his peers) in my mind. This tradition has a strong base in Shangxi, Hebei and Szechuan provinces. Note that these provinces are north western and south western locations. Much of the physcial confrontations of China with foreign powers prior to Ming dynasty (1368 - 1644) happened mainly from the western fronts.

It is say that in the travels of Jue Yuan, during Jin Yuan period, he visited mainly the western territories until he reached Lanzhou, Xianxi where he met Li Shou who has a friend Bai Yufeng that is originally from Shanxi Taiyuan. While it is logical to think that Bai Yufeng could have "Tongbi" or rather some kind of boxing training when he was in Shanxi, it is also possible that the boxing style that he's brought with him to Shaolin is more in line with Xin Yi Liu He or some type of animal based arts that is also quite old and western terrritory based. We also need to note that Yuan dynasty builded a few more Shaolin temples throughout China. One of them happens to be in Shanxi Taiyuan. Yuan dynasty also restricted martial arts practices by Chinese civilians.

IMHO Tongbi as a term would have been like modern day term boxing in the western territories of China during and throughout Song, Yuan and Ming periods. So to distinguish one style from another you would have to add another designation such as Hong Dong, Bai Yuan, liang Yi, Du Liu, Wu Xing, etc... Note that Hong Dong is pretty much the only one that is named after a specific region in Shanxi. The other designation that are more "attribute" inclined didn't come out until Qing dynasty.

So the question is why Shanxi Hong Dong is so important to Tongbi that a style is named after it?

It so happened that Shanxi, during the chaotic period between Song and Jin Yuan times, was relatively better economics wise. Harvesting was good in Shanxi even during the Yuan dynasty. This provided stability and drew immigrants and refugees from other areas. When Zhu Yuanzhang (Ming Taizu) reunited the country he made some important policies that made a great impact in Chinese psyche that we can found traces of them in our folklores and pop culture even today. One of these policies was massive relocation of the populace. He made an edict to relocate people (mainly from the Shanxi region) to other places in China. The centre for carrying out of this edict is Hong Dong in Shanxi. There is an old tree in front of a temple that marks the beginning of the forced march of the legislated migrantion to repopulate the "poorer" regions of China during the early Ming dynasty. Hong Dong Tongbi is likely a folk response to help those who emigrated to other regions (Henan province is a possible location) to cope and to never forget their roots.

However, this doesn't mean that there's nothing happening in the south. Ming dynasty encountered major Japanese pirate raids along the eastern coastal regions and also southern regions (ie Fujian and surrounded area and as far north as Shandong). There is a strong martial tradition in southern areas such as Jiangsu, Zhejiang, Fujian, Nanjing, etc. This tradition is known as Duanda (short strikes) and is indigenous to the southern countries in China.

It is of note that Zhejiang area used to be the ancient fief of Yue during the Warring States period. So people there are no strangers to warfare and their indigenous martial arts caught the attention of mid to late Ming (1500s and onwards) Generals including Tang Shunzhi, Yu Dayou and Qi Jiguang. I believe even the Daosit Zhuangzi (369-286 BCE) mentioned a tale about a lady of Yue and her sword fighting ability. I am of the opinion that Kung Fu (not equivalent to traditional or modern Wushu) as a discipline is really based in an ancient believe system and philosophy since Xia dynasty (Neolithic and Early Civilsations periods) that is inherited mainly in the south. This means Zhejiang could have been the source of this tradition. Fujian beginning a transit; while, Jiangxi is the hub and Guangdong being the end zone, where there is always a strong Daoist contingent and following.

The following is more geared towards praying mantis:

This system usually goes under two different designations in the past, one is Xing Quan (phase fist) and the other is Fanziquan (flip and turn fist). When the longfist and short strikes traditions met in Shangdon roughly beginning to mid-Ming dynasty (1368 - 1500s CE) due to migrations of refugees and redeployment of troops, there began a fusion that later came to known as Luohan Xinggong Duanda which became one of the indigenous pugilistic styles of Shangdong that inspired modern day Shandong Tanglang especially of the Liang Xuexiang (1810-? CE) lines that I would call Greater Meihwa Line. Unfortunately, we have but a book with numerous versions that is called Luohan Xinggong Duanda Tupu (A.K.A Shaolin Authentic) as a possible source of origin to work with and not much physcially reminence of its existence is available. BTW, this is where the legend of Wang Lang came from. However, there's little doubt in my mind about the southern connection especially with the 18 Luohan Gong portion of LHXGDD for I believe that particular portion as well as some hands/fighting combinations with strategies survived (might have been modified) in the GML as San Hui Jiu Zhuan Luohan Gong and Tanglang Shou (loose hands not the form).

I'd say the following with a caveat (there really isn't substantial phyiscal proof of connections or relationships other than similarity found in training protocols) that Xing Quan as it went north to Jiangsu and Henan from Zhejiang, it became Huaquan and Hongquan. As it went south to Fujian, Jiangxi, and Guangdong, it became White Crane (Fujian), Hung Gar or Wing Chun in Guandong, and Hakka styles (Southern Mantis, Lung Ying, Bak Mei, etc) in the East River region of Guangdong. Hakka/Kejia (guest people) are mainly migrants from the north. Migrations happened in phases as early as Han dynasty (approx. 200 BC). Hakka spirtual or religious practices are generally in line with Shamanistic Daoism especially those sects there are found in the south Such as Jiangxi Long Hu Shan or Juerong Miao Shan. Their loyality to the family, which is the backbone of traditional Chinese culture, is unquestionably strong. We must understand that traditional Chinese sociology is in fact expressed in a chain such as individual + family + country + world (nations). When you are a "guest" people to survive in a rather hostile (pun intended) "country" you must rely on the kinship of the family in order to make it through. This is why Men Pai (system and style) as well as lineage is so important to them. Their spirtual believes also help them to cope with the otherwise hopeless situation. When the going is tough the tough goes to breathing. This is why San Zhan (3 battle) forms is so important to these arts because the only thing that you would have left with sometime really is your own breaths.

We could built a circumstantial case of a connection base on evidences between virtually any and all styles of Kung Fu but we can't possibly prove it or disprove it due to a lack of unfallible solid proof IMHO.

Just a thought

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Sal Canzonieri]

Thanks! I really appreciate your response!

I understand what you mean about Hong Quan then.

Okay, what I am now trying to understand is where Hong Dong Tong Bei has an impact on Henan martial arts, or is it vice versa?

Chen family and their cousins the Li family came from Hong Dong in Shanxi.
At the very least, it is known that they brought the 108 Posture set with them to Henan and their villages, according to some Chen family members.

The current Li family papers that have been discovered recently (see: http://www.literati-tradition.com/chen_camp.html for bibliography ) say this:

"By the time of the ninth generation, the Li patriarchs Zhong and Xin, and their inter-marriage cousin Chen Wangting again became sworn brothers like their forefathers, and took the abbot Bogong Wudao 博公武道 as their master at the Taiji Gate 太極門 of Qianzai Temple. The three sworn brothers resolved to follow the civil-martial tradition, and strive for great achievements. They created taiji yangshen gong 太極養生功, or “the art of Taiji Cultivating Life,” and practiced and transmitted wuji yangshen gong 無極養生功, or “the art of Wuji Cultivating Life,” shisanshi tongbei gong 十三式通臂功, or “the Thirteen Postures Boxing.” (Qu Jian)

So, they were calling what they did Tong Bei and Tai Ji, way back then, at Chen Wangting's time. By Chen Changxing's time (14th generation), they practiced the 108 Posture routine, some Hong Quan routines, and some Pao Chui routines. Which, they called their "shaolin sets". Most of these they are keeping to themselves, claiming that they are lost over time and the present day Chen Tai Ji Yi Lu and Er Lu sets are developed from combining the best of these early sets.

Okay, granted.

THEN, some people from Chen village instead say that Hong Dong Tong Bei comes from the Henan Chen village, via a member of the Chen family that married into his wife's family, Gao, and they fled to their ancestral home (when he was wanted for causing an accidental death).

But how could this be? Hong Dong village's tong bei has a lot of sets, not just the 108 posture set (which does match up pretty much to the Chen version - that the Chen village says was retrieved not to long ago from Hong Dong village and revived after being "long lost").
So, where did these other Hong Dong Tong Bei sets come from?

I am looking for any information I can find on Hong Dong Tong Bei, or Wuji Coiling Boxing as they call it there often times.
The sets, any history, what it originates from, when it developed, etc etc.

From the Shaolin end of things, the 108 Hong Dong Tong Bei set clearly is related to their Hong Quan and Tai Tzu Chang Quan, they share 80% of the postures and sequences.

I want to learn just how old Hong Dong Tong Bei is, if it came before and influenced Chen and Li family martial arts OR if it was developed AFTER this Gao guy went there.

They do a lot of sets, so it must be older than these Chen people are claiming.

[mantis108]

You are most welcome. I just found the following concerning Hong Dong Tongbi and Taijiquan connection. I haven't taken a close look at it yet but here it goes:

新到绝世珍本内部教材《通背拳练用叙真》秦根记整理
国内独家公开，只为有口徳良民服务！
山西洪洞体委在1982年7月挖掘的由河南郭永福嫡传于山西洪洞贺家庄贺怀壁之手，该通背拳共108式，与 河南陈式太极拳传人陈王庭原传太极长拳108式实属同一源流！

通背：通者，来往无阻也。背，即脊背。它在躯干的上部占居重要的地位，向上是头部，左右通过两肩达于两臂， 向下通过腰胯达与两腿。总之：精，气神由背部通过，遍与全身，达于四稍，来往无阻，四通八达。

该拳分为九排，上中下之别，共108式（其中组成若干路）其内容是：
人体分为：五位，三节，四稍，五行，经络。
从内容上分为：七星，八手，七步，五身，五靠，八掌，八炮，七拳，三十六肘，三十六腿，六六三十六摔，散打 三十六着，七十二拿，通背短打108着，一手分为八手，八八六十四手，拳打七门之分。
练法：八法，八要，六合，六纵，六巧，十測。
五位：身为元帅，头为帅领，眼为先行，手为战箭，腿为根。

目录

第一章通背拳概论
第二章通背拳练法要义
一练法分为三个阶段
二常用拳掌勾步型
三要义十測
四技术要求
第三章生理保健特点
一神经系统
二循环系统和呼吸系统
三运动系统
四消化系统
五新陈代谢
第四章套路图解说明
一通背拳第一路
动作名称
动作说明
二通背拳第二路
动作名称
动作说明
第五章实用十二招
一技击要义
二实用十二招图解说明
第六章通背拳内功练法
一内功练法
二攻守歌诀
三拳经歌诀

后记还有一本1937年影印本中国书店出版的日本武术家武田熙著的《通背拳法》，曾被30年代北京警察局作 为教材使用！403页，早已绝版珍本！
新到旧珍本已绝版秘本：1《武式太极拳》赫少如编著顾留审1963年6月第一版。2《软硬气功自学速成指迷 》岭西隐叟编著，1992年1月第1版广西民族出版社出版（莫文丹硬功）。3《神速点穴制敌》 杨连村著 1989.年7月于河北师范大学完成初稿，1990年1月第一版，河北人民出版社出版。4《搏击与训练》彭 定春编著武汉体育学院温敬铭推荐写緖言， 1984年8月第一版，湖北科学技术出版社出版。5《剑术》九段教授蔡龙云编著1982年11月第一版，江 西人民出版社出版。6《马礼堂内部教材养气功经络循行图解》江苏省沛县气功协会7《中华峨嵋内功》方宗骅著 内部教材（首次公开了1玄门内功拳法2金烝神功掌3清虚剑4内功八法拳5八法修真功6内功八法剑7返还壮内 功8六步纯阳功9通灵内丹术10六部养生功11长寿益智功等绝密功夫。）8《武林传奇》万天石著1985年 7月第一版，湖南科学技术出版社。 9《鹤拳》（福建南拳）胡金焕等著1982年10月第一版，福建人民出版社出版！10《江湖打斗绝命腿》邵 发明编著北京体院出版社11《少林武术连手短打达摩杖》高徳江编著12《八卦掌》姜容焦13《形意拳术》李 天冀14《武松脱拷拳》蔡龙云编著15《嵩山少林拳法》梁以全著16《军警实用格斗术》上下本王卫东著北体 院出版社。
其它行业内部绝版教材：1四川省卫生厅编中医轮训班教材之一《中医基本知识》之二《本草概要》1958年1 2月出版四川人民出版社出版。2《粤菜厨艺教材》广州市服务行业中等专业学校内部教材1979年六月出版。 3四川省劳动厅技校教硏室职业技能培训鉴定教材（内部）《初中高级美容师内部教材》川新出内（1996年） 字第241号
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[Sal Canzonieri]

thanks again!

[bredmond812]

I believe even the Daosit Zhuangzi (369-286 BCE) mentioned a tale about a lady of Yue and her sword fighting ability.

You might referring to the story "the Sword of the Yue Maiden." Which was written rather recently (1970) by Jinyong. We read it in my Popular Chinese Literature class. I dont have the reader at my apartment, but the story is something like this:

Sword competition between Yue and Wu? countries. Yue always looses. They look for some way to win. Meet this sheepherder girl named Ah Qing. She soundly defeats some ruffians while only using a thin pointy stick, and they used a sword. The prime minister of Yue wants to bring her in and learn from her. She agrees and later agrees to introduce her to her Shifu. But guess what. Her Shifu is a......White Ape. Literally. Isnt that weird? Now i dont know if the author (who is still alive) is suggesting some connection between Zhejiang and Tongbei baiyuan quan, or if he just knows a little martial arts history, and thought it would be cool for his story, or what.

I didnt like the story personally. I thought the writing was trite and the characters weak.

Incidentally, the king of Yue, Gou Jian later appeared in Sima Qian when i read it in my Traditional Literature Class. And can anybody correct me here: the Yue in Yuenan (Vietnam) is the same Hanzi as the Yue in Yue Kingdom from the late Zhou, and this being true, Vietnam gets its name from the late Zhou Kingdom of Yue? It makes sense, because i know that the Yue people were pushed south by the Chu i think. I read all that several months ago, so i dont remember the names exactly.

I have found the story here:

http://wuxiapedia.com/novels/jin_yon...he_yueh_maiden

Anyway, just my two cents.

B Redmond


BTW, Sal, you seem to have done a lot of martial arts research. Have you made any sites in particular to share this information, or do you plan to?

[Sal Canzonieri]

You might referring to the story "the Sword of the Yue Maiden." Which was written rather recently (1970) by Jinyong. We read it in my Popular Chinese Literature class. I dont have the reader at my apartment, but the story is something like this:

Sword competition between Yue and Wu? countries. Yue always looses. They look for some way to win. Meet this sheepherder girl named Ah Qing. She soundly defeats some ruffians while only using a thin pointy stick, and they used a sword. The prime minister of Yue wants to bring her in and learn from her. She agrees and later agrees to introduce her to her Shifu. But guess what. Her Shifu is a......White Ape. Literally. Isnt that weird? Now i dont know if the author (who is still alive) is suggesting some connection between Zhejiang and Tongbei baiyuan quan, or if he just knows a little martial arts history, and thought it would be cool for his story, or what.

I didnt like the story personally. I thought the writing was trite and the characters weak.

Incidentally, the king of Yue, Gou Jian later appeared in Sima Qian when i read it in my Traditional Literature Class. And can anybody correct me here: the Yue in Yuenan (Vietnam) is the same Hanzi as the Yue in Yue Kingdom from the late Zhou, and this being true, Vietnam gets its name from the late Zhou Kingdom of Yue? It makes sense, because i know that the Yue people were pushed south by the Chu i think. I read all that several months ago, so i dont remember the names exactly.

I have found the story here:

http://wuxiapedia.com/novels/jin_yon...he_yueh_maiden

Anyway, just my two cents.

B Redmond


BTW, Sal, you seem to have done a lot of martial arts research. Have you made any sites in particular to share this information, or do you plan to?

That story of Yue the female swordfighter is much older than that 1970 story, hah haha. It goes way way way back!

I do have a website that collects all my articles:

www.naturalcma.bgtent.com