Fighting vs Training

[Fu-Pow]

I'd like to throw out an idea I had about training vs. fighting....because I have something to say

My thought is that you should learn to fight as efficiently as possible but train like you are the most inefficient motherfocker ever born.

The problem I see with MMA is that they fight (at least the stand up portion) in a very inefficient way...this is partially dictated by the rules but also by the kind of macho attitude that surrounds it (ie I will out muscle, out cardio, out endure my opponent.)

The problem I see with the TMA is that there is this underlying assumption of "one hit ,one kill." That you're not going to have to go even 1 round let alone 10 because of your amazing skill.

But even the most skilled will one day meet there match and you may have to go for many rounds.

So the solution I think is to train for maximum fighting efficiency (and IMO internal arts have the market on effciency) but cross train so that you can tow the line if need be....ie jogging, calisthenics, weight training (if it doesn't interfere with your particular art.)

But don't learn to fight in an ineffcient way. Learn to end things quickly with the least expended effort.

FP

[Samurai Jack]

I like the theory. It's been well established that where sport fighters beat so called traditionalists hands down is in the conditioning and live sparring department. If you throw in these methods with your traditional training, you have a much better chance of coming out on top against a conditioned opponent.

It still amazes me when I hear someone say that they don't need to run, weight train, spar, whatever... because they study so-and-so's amazing system of ancient fighting.

It's beyond me why people will profess to be a martial artist, yet not constantly seek to improve themselves in any way they can. People of this ilk are not really traditionalists. They are hobbyists.

[boshea]

...

So the solution I think is to train for maximum fighting efficiency (and IMO internal arts have the market on effciency) but cross train so that you can tow the line if need be....ie jogging, calisthenics, weight training (if it doesn't interfere with your particular art.)

But don't learn to fight in an ineffcient way. Learn to end things quickly with the least expended effort.

FP

Hi Fu-Pow,

I only have experience with two external styles (Northern Shaolin and Muay Thai), and in both cases the class did jogging and/or skipping rope, and calisthenics, with some (lesser) emphasis on weight training. The "warmup" was pretty intense, and especially in the early days, I was pretty much beat before the lesson even began. From what I have heard of other schools, this is typical of external styles. I always assumed that the purpose of this was to prepare us, as you are suggesting, to be able to deal with a more strenuous situation than would usually be required in a realistic fight, so that you would have the endurance to fight strong for the duration of the fight.

On the other hand, while teaching the actual techniques, both in Shaolin and Muay Thai, my instructors always emphasized being relaxed and conserving engergy. They explained that the techniques are designed to avoid having to "muscle" through kicks and punches -- instead making use of balance, body mechanics and momentum. Is that what you are asking?

Cheers,
-brian

[boshea]

Woa...

Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: *******, soon to be ***
Posts: 2,909

Fu-Pow, I think you joined the KFM forum around the time that the Internet came into existence! (and suspiciously close to the start of the epoch for a certain OS...)

Unless there's a bug in the system...

(Sorry for the off-topic post, but Fu-Pow's inbox is full so I couldn't PM him!)

[Samurai Jack]

It's a bug. Happened when the forum switched servers a few years ago.

[PangQuan]

interesting for sure.

the only thing that comes to mind for me is that sometimes you will be outclassed, and in not being able to end the altercation/bout quickly, you will want to have trained as well in being able to last not only with your conditioning but with good defense. while of course we are all going to train our defenses to be as good as we can get them, we would surely want to have the knowledge of techniques available when in a very defensive position to be able to also wear your opponent down. some of this knowledge will not be in effeciency of combat in the sense of ending the fight quickly.

i guess in short what im trying to say is that sometimes knowing what you can do with basic motor skills when your gassed against someone far better than you can be of some value as well.

its hard to be effecient when you have very little energy. its nice to be able to handle that as well. though im not saying you would want to spend too much focus on this aspect.

just trying to add to the thread

[SevenStar]

I'd like to throw out an idea I had about training vs. fighting....because I have something to say

My thought is that you should learn to fight as efficiently as possible but train like you are the most inefficient motherfocker ever born.

The problem I see with MMA is that they fight (at least the stand up portion) in a very inefficient way...this is partially dictated by the rules but also by the kind of macho attitude that surrounds it (ie I will out muscle, out cardio, out endure my opponent.)

The problem I see with the TMA is that there is this underlying assumption of "one hit ,one kill." That you're not going to have to go even 1 round let alone 10 because of your amazing skill.

But even the most skilled will one day meet there match and you may have to go for many rounds.

So the solution I think is to train for maximum fighting efficiency (and IMO internal arts have the market on effciency) but cross train so that you can tow the line if need be....ie jogging, calisthenics, weight training (if it doesn't interfere with your particular art.)

But don't learn to fight in an ineffcient way. Learn to end things quickly with the least expended effort.

FP

before I post my 2 cents, I have a question: what is the inefficiency in mma you are talking about?

[SoCo KungFu]

before I post my 2 cents, I have a question: what is the inefficiency in mma you are talking about?

I'm not sure what he was talking about but I've seen a few fighters (I don't pay any attention to names) with some striking issues. Usually not the head liners. Its usually the guys that the commentators describe as the "brawlers" as opposed to boxer, MT fighter, whatever other striker description. That or the guys that are new to MMA but come from a wrestling background and have only been training striking recently. Is it just me or do the guys coming in from BJJ/jiu-jutsu seem to be more collected in their early fights? (not to mean better, brute rage can be just as helpful. But just more loose and tactical it seems)

Anyways, the biggest thing that gets me is when those guys lob those long arching punches that I honestly don't know how they connect. I mean, they hit hard and like a truck, when the do land its usually KO or the opening needed to get in for a KO. But yeah, its like they are chambering their punches at their kneecaps.

While we're on the subject. I don't pay much attention to the rules and stuff since I don't really watch much T.V. and here martial arts in general let alone MMA gets little coverage. But, is it illegal to use open palm strikes in MMA comp? I never see anyone throwing em. But if they let knees and elbows I don't see why a palm shot would be illegal. Or is it just the MT/boxer makeup of most of the striking and that those sports do not use palm strikes? Just wondering, since you know....coming from a Tiger background palm strikes are kinda my thing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Training to fight for a competition, a defined rule set, is one thing, training to fight outside of that is another.

MMA train the best they can for their environment.

Personally I don't agree with some of their methodologies, but they train for their sport.

[JiuJitsu]

sanjuro_ronin

"MMA train the best they can for their environment"

MMA schools compared to how traditional schools train will be better prepared for any environment. How do the traditional schools honestly train better for the street. Their compliant non alive static training methods give a false sense of what can be pulled off in a real situation.

The MMA guy while not practicing "deadly" moves practices his punches/kicks etc with resistance as well as his grappling, so he knows what he can do under pressure and so will be able to use those tools in any environment where the opponent is resisiting.

I have done traditional styles most of my life, I did karate for 4 years, then kung fu for 6 years and then wing chun for 3 so I am aware of how the traditional styles train. I am now a BJJ brown belt and teach MMA in South Africa. The way we train will have my students able to defend themeselves on the street in less then a year. I couldn't say the same for any traditional style I studdied.

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro_ronin

"MMA train the best they can for their environment"

MMA schools compared to how traditional schools train will be better prepared for any environment. How do the traditional schools honestly train better for the street. Their compliant non alive static training methods give a false sense of what can be pulled off in a real situation.

The MMA guy while not practicing "deadly" moves practices his punches/kicks etc with resistance as well as his grappling, so he knows what he can do under pressure and so will be able to use those tools in any environment where the opponent is resisiting.

I have done traditional styles most of my life, I did karate for 4 years, then kung fu for 6 years and then wing chun for 3 so I am aware of how the traditional styles train. I am now a BJJ brown belt and teach MMA in South Africa. The way we train will have my students able to defend themeselves on the street in less then a year. I couldn't say the same for any traditional style I studdied.

Not sure what your point is...
What is you stated is old news...
The posters stated that HE found that MMA train "ineficiently", I stated they train for their sport combat environment, which is what MMA is, sport combat.

[JiuJitsu]

sanjuro_ronin

"Training to fight for a competition, a defined rule set, is one thing, training to fight outside of that is another."

This is what u said, so I want to know how do you train differently for the street, give me an example of the traiing you do that will prepare you for the street, compared to the MMA guys sport training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

sanjuro_ronin

"Training to fight for a competition, a defined rule set, is one thing, training to fight outside of that is another."

This is what u said, so I want to know how do you train differently for the street, give me an example of the traiing you do that will prepare you for the street, compared to the MMA guys sport training.

Intent, weapons, surface difference and time ( or lack thereof).
And by the way, what I do IS "MMA", as you can probably tell by my profile.
By the way, if you think that training with "aliveness" and resisting opponents is new or unique to MMA, you need to get out more.

[TenTigers]

"The more one sweats in practice,
the less blood is shed in times of war"-Chinese Proverb

"Sweat more, Bleed less"-seen on Everlast sweatshirts, and posters

"Train Hard, Win Easy"-seen on a locker room wall.

[Fu-Pow]

before I post my 2 cents, I have a question: what is the inefficiency in mma you are talking about?

I started this thread when I had just rolled in from a long plane trip so let me clarify something.

I guess I'm presenting a false dichotomy here because its not really a MMA vs TMA issue its more of an internal vs external issue. Internal MAs train for maximum efficiency where as external martial arts train techniques that are less mechanically efficient but also train the conditioning that goes along with it.

My point is that in terms of techniques one should train for maximum efficiency, both in terms of the technique executed and HOW it is executed (ie body mechanics).

But it is foolish to think that you will not need some kind of "inefficiency" training because, frankly, everyone makes mistakes and those little mistakes translate into
big inefficiencies.

So it doesn't matter if you train MMA or TMA. The point is that you ALWAYS be working toward greater efficiency and economy of motion in your technique but at the same time training cardio, strength, endurance for when you are less than efficient or economical.

The problem arises when we stop working towards greater economy/efficiency and just assume that we need to increase our endurance, strength, etc. to sustain what we are doing in terms of technique. This is not necessarily a problem endemic to TMA or MMA specifically.

So the question is should be getting a "great workout" from training our technique? Or should be working out separately and then training our technique to NOT be a "great workout."


FP