Boxing vs. MMA

[Dragonzbane76]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...xer/index.html

[Ultimatewingchun]

Check this out:

If you’re a fan of combat sports, Brock Lennar’s performance in UFC 121 main event last Saturday was nothing short of pathetic.

For those of us that watched the big show, we witnessed the man who many, if not most, considered to be the best heavyweight in MMA not only completely gas out two minutes into the first round, but handle taking punches the same way a girl scout would – covering up, cowering, and hoping the bad man would just go away.

On that same night, we watched Brendan Schaub school another heavyweight elite, Gabriel Gonzaga, with nothing but good ring generalship and a decent jab.

It’s becoming increasingly obvious that boxing fundamentals are not just winning high profile fights, but an absolute necessity to compete at the elite level MMA isn’t like it was back when Royce Gracie entered the first UFC and dominated every opponent he came across by immediately taking them to the ground and performing submissions.

These days, grappling and submission defense is a standard, and fighters are usually more than equipped on preventing being taken to the ground and on what to do when it happens. So where does that leave them? Standing and striking.

But let’s not act like flying knees and kicks are winning fights. Frankie Edgar completely dominated a top three pound-for-pound fighter in BJ Penn, not once, but twice by fighting almost entirely as a pure boxer.

By sticking and moving and circling his opponent, Edgar managed to both embarrass and end the reign of the lightweight champion. Not once in either of their fights did the great Penn seem to have any answer.

Dan Hardy - known for being a ferocious striker himself - was just knocked out when he was countered while throwing a looping left hook. It’s the same left hook that quite often we’ll see MMA guys do mid-fight when they give up on strategy and just look for the quick KO.

I call it "The Strikers Folly." It’s when two fighters suddenly decide to just start winging left hooks until someone inevitably gets caught. The lethal ****tail of small gloves, an unprotected chin, and not seeing the punch coming leaves somebody out cold and the fight over. Most of Chuck Liddell’s career wins were based on this...so were his losses.

It’s this kind of poor establishment of boxing fundamentals which makes the still-evolving sport sometimes look cheap and amateurish, even at the highest level, and it’s not simply a matter of styles making fights.

There is no excuse for a UFC fighter to not know how to properly handle taking a punch, to not be prepared for more than a round of hard fighting, to not know how to approach an opponent who circles you with a flicking jab, to lack the discipline to avoid a fight regressing into a wild slugfest.

Yet, still we’re seeing it all the time. This isn’t just stuff they shouldn’t be doing in a championship fight – this is stuff that should be out of their system by the time they sign with the UFC.

If this means Shane Carwin needs to start jogging in training, like a professional boxer does, in order to prevent punching himself out after one round, so be it. If BJ Penn needs to learn how to counter and throw back when his opponent just wants to box all night, fine. It’s certainly better than him aimlessly waiting all night hoping for his opponent to stand still so he can shoot for the takedown.

There was a time when MMA was young and every fighter needed extensive lessons on how to perform a takedown, how to perform submissions, and how to guard during grappling. Now, it seems they all need a serious clinic with Emanuel Steward before entering the Octagon.

You can’t take a punch well? Try sparring every day in a boxing ring until you can. Getting caught on the chin too often? Learn to keep your guard up. Can’t catch your opponent who boxing your ears off? Somebody teach you how to apply pressure and cut off their exit. And once that’s down, then you can begin to apply it to the rest of your game.

Anderson Silva has long been known for his ability to not just deal punches, but avoid them coming his way, despite being a fantastic BJJ guy. Lyoto Machida seemed invincible in his run to the light heavyweight championship, with his counters and striking combinations, but even that ended when Shogun Rua applied one of Boxing 101s "Styles Make Fights" rules – counterpunchers hate pressure.

It really is funny to see how full-circle boxing has become in MMA. Royce Gracie made it seem worthless at one time, but now, it seems more necessary than ever. But let’s make sure that we’re learning more than just how to throw a punch. Today’s MMA elite need the endurance to make it through the long haul, the experience to know how to handle an opponent who decides to fire off on you, and the basic movement and ring generalship to handle a guy who just wants to stick and move on his feet. Until then, don’t be surprised to see more dominant champions of MMA fall to boxing’s simple one-two.

By Ryan Kennedy

[goju]

does this ryan kenndey even fight? i find it amusing he said that about brock espeically given the fact the guy supposedly sustained an eye injury during the fight

Of cours eim sure he would have defended himself better if that happended to him.

[Knifefighter]

Good analysis. Fights are won and fighting evolves by developing strategies to deal with various weaknesses. Works in the fight game... works in wars... works in business.

[viper]

Nice call I agree id say back in the day good grappling was the game changer now it seems striking is taking the wheel back since almost every decent fighter can ground fight. Evolution.

[Dragonzbane76]

nice post.

honestly one can say that fighting is about evolution. only objection i can throw out is that on any given day, anyone can be knocked out, no matter what training. Maybe that's not an objection in what you werer saying, just a statement of what reality presents.

[viper]

Oh yeh punchers chance still exists. Really striking training is about lessening the chance of a knockout on you and getting you a knockout on the opponent (within the sport arena).

[meltdawn]

Ryan, wtf?

how is anyone getting in a cage and fighting 'pathetic'? i hate when fighters get put down or booed. Lesnar showed in his previous fight that he could only hold out for a decision, but that he COULD. that's why this fight was eagerly anticipated.

UFC in the beginning was a style against style fight and boxers knew they had no reason to be in there.

Gabriel Gonzaga's a bjj guy with a lucky kick.

i don't think Edgar 'embarrassed' BJ, that's a rude way of commentating on a fight which most people of respect wouldn't use against a champ like BJ. AND i don't see where your 'flying knees and kicks' comment has any relevance to this fight?

a fight is so dynamic, but it's ALL about strategy, so your striker's folly thing is folly. Chuck sticks and hits, he's as close to Hakka kung fu ideals as i've ever seen in a ring. how can you 'give up on strategy and look for a quick KO"? that makes NO sense to me. boxers ALWAYS say you CAN'T train for a KO.

"It’s this kind of poor establishment of boxing fundamentals which makes the still-evolving sport sometimes look cheap and amateurish"

wow. you OBVIOUSLY have no understanding of the differences between boxing and full contact fighting. and that you would judge MMA by purely boxing fundamentals proves it further. "can't take a punch well"? wtf dude, there's a HUGE difference between boxing gloves and MMA gloves AND who the **** can train to "take a punch" beyond sparring AND how can you keep up a perfect boxing guard when a guy could shoot or throw or sweep or clinch you? boxing is a sport in its own right, not a be all end all. NOTHING is these days.

[Frost]

Check this out:

If you’re a fan of combat sports, Brock Lennar’s performance in UFC 121 main event last Saturday was nothing short of pathetic.

For those of us that watched the big show, we witnessed the man who many, if not most, considered to be the best heavyweight in MMA not only completely gas out two minutes into the first round, but handle taking punches the same way a girl scout would – covering up, cowering, and hoping the bad man would just go away.

lol he was taking heavy punches from a big guy, who wouldnt cover up, fact was he got beat by a better fighter on the day, calling him pathetic is like calling lennox lewis pathetic when he used to turn up over weight and not want to fight just stay away and jab for 12 rounds#

On that same night, we watched Brendan Schaub school another heavyweight elite, Gabriel Gonzaga, with nothing but good ring generalship and a decent jab.

It’s becoming increasingly obvious that boxing fundamentals are not just winning high profile fights, but an absolute necessity to compete at the elite level MMA isn’t like it was back when Royce Gracie entered the first UFC and dominated every opponent he came across by immediately taking them to the ground and performing submissions.

These days, grappling and submission defense is a standard, and fighters are usually more than equipped on preventing being taken to the ground and on what to do when it happens. So where does that leave them? Standing and striking..

Of course boxing fundermentals are a necessary, as are grappling and ground fundermentals, does anyone really thing otherwise, the question is always who can dominate and dictate the range the fight happens at

If grappling defenses were that easy to get down strikers like dan hardy and paul daley would be dominating the division, the fact is they cant offload like they want to because they know that he who dictates the range the fight happens in normally wins, and that means usually the better grappler. A good striker wont set himself and throw bombs because of the threat of the takedown. On the flip side the better strikers, henderson, silva, rua etc all have very good grappling and dont fear being taken down so much

But let’s not act like flying knees and kicks are winning fights. Frankie Edgar completely dominated a top three pound-for-pound fighter in BJ Penn, not once, but twice by fighting almost entirely as a pure boxer.

By sticking and moving and circling his opponent, Edgar managed to both embarrass and end the reign of the lightweight champion. Not once in either of their fights did the great Penn seem to have any answer.

Penn is also a good boxer, edgar did not fear the takedown because of his wrestling background and thus was able to dictate the range and beat penn, just as penn had done to pulvner, sherk and countless others

Dan Hardy - known for being a ferocious striker himself - was just knocked out when he was countered while throwing a looping left hook. It’s the same left hook that quite often we’ll see MMA guys do mid-fight when they give up on strategy and just look for the quick KO.

I call it "The Strikers Folly." It’s when two fighters suddenly decide to just start winging left hooks until someone inevitably gets caught. The lethal ****tail of small gloves, an unprotected chin, and not seeing the punch coming leaves somebody out cold and the fight over. Most of Chuck Liddell’s career wins were based on this...so were his losses.

It’s this kind of poor establishment of boxing fundamentals which makes the still-evolving sport sometimes look cheap and amateurish, even at the highest level, and it’s not simply a matter of styles making fights.

BOxing is different that MMA, as he pinted out small gloves, less protection etc all make it different, melvim minoff is a classic example of what happens if you go in thinking its a oxing or thai match he had his last opponent up against the cage and was working him like a heavybag when a looping hook put him to sleep, the fact is you have to adapt your striking so it wont look as clean and crisp as pure boxing, neither would boxing if they used 4 oz gloves, were allowed to ground and pound and if the fights were stopped as soon as one opponent couldnt defend themselves, ie no three knock down rule

There is no excuse for a UFC fighter to not know how to properly handle taking a punch, to not be prepared for more than a round of hard fighting, to not know how to approach an opponent who circles you with a flicking jab, to lack the discipline to avoid a fight regressing into a wild slugfest.

Yet, still we’re seeing it all the time. This isn’t just stuff they shouldn’t be doing in a championship fight – this is stuff that should be out of their system by the time they sign with the UFC.

If this means Shane Carwin needs to start jogging in training, like a professional boxer does, in order to prevent punching himself out after one round, so be it. If BJ Penn needs to learn how to counter and throw back when his opponent just wants to box all night, fine. It’s certainly better than him aimlessly waiting all night hoping for his opponent to stand still so he can shoot for the takedown.[/QUOTE]


I agree MMA fighters could learn alot from the conditioning of boxers, but the demands of MMA are so much more extensive on the bodies energy systems that its much harder to condition for an MMA fight than alot of people mthink

There was a time when MMA was young and every fighter needed extensive lessons on how to perform a takedown, how to perform submissions, and how to guard during grappling. Now, it seems they all need a serious clinic with Emanuel Steward before entering the Octagon.

You can’t take a punch well? Try sparring every day in a boxing ring until you can. Getting caught on the chin too often? Learn to keep your guard up. Can’t catch your opponent who boxing your ears off? Somebody teach you how to apply pressure and cut off their exit. And once that’s down, then you can begin to apply it to the rest of your game.

Anderson Silva has long been known for his ability to not just deal punches, but avoid them coming his way, despite being a fantastic BJJ guy. Lyoto Machida seemed invincible in his run to the light heavyweight championship, with his counters and striking combinations, but even that ended when Shogun Rua applied one of Boxing 101s "Styles Make Fights" rules – counterpunchers hate pressure.

It really is funny to see how full-circle boxing has become in MMA. Royce Gracie made it seem worthless at one time, but now, it seems more necessary than ever. But let’s make sure that we’re learning more than just how to throw a punch. Today’s MMA elite need the endurance to make it through the long haul, the experience to know how to handle an opponent who decides to fire off on you, and the basic movement and ring generalship to handle a guy who just wants to stick and move on his feet. Until then, don’t be surprised to see more dominant champions of MMA fall to boxing’s simple one-two.

By Ryan Kennedy

Grappling is still the most important eliment of MMA, especially wrestling because he who dictates the range the fight happens in will normally win, standupis important but no one has ever argued otherwise to my knowledge, but the skill set of MMA, the demands on these guys training time and the scope of what they have to learn means the level of striking will never be as good as in a pure striking art

[sanjuro_ronin]

As natural strikers begin to understand more and more HOW to use their striking within the MMA context, you will see not only more KO's BUT also much better striking skill.
It takes a while to adapt "orthodox" boxing to MMA because of the footwork, but as it evolves fighters find their natural style and what you get is "orthodox" bocing the looks as close to it as MMA footwork will allow it.
The thing is, to do this the boxer needs to also be a pretty good grappler and it is this confidence and awareness that will let him now how to and when to strike with the "orthodox" boxing that is far more effective than the more "wild and sloppy" we tend to see in MMA.
Like KF said, it it the evolution of MMA.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The thing is, to do this the boxer needs to also be a pretty good grappler and it is this confidence and awareness that will let him now how to and when to strike with the 'orthodox' boxing that is far more effective than the more 'wild and sloppy' we tend to see in MMA." (sanjuro)
.........................

***YEAH. Sprawl and brawl could go a long way for someone with real boxing skills.

[m1k3]

One weakness the "native" boxer will have to prepare for is leg kicks. The boxing guard will need to be modified not only for shots but kicking attacks to the front leg.

[GeneChing]

Tyson Fury is a great name for a boxing champ.

Tyson Fury: Mixed martial arts is rubbish
April, 18, 2013 11:07 AM ET
McNeil By Franklin McNeil
ESPN.com


Tyson FuryAP Photo/Seth Wenig
Tyson Fury hasn't won a major title, but he proclaims himself as the best fighter in the world.
NEW YORK -- It's not a debatable issue: heavyweight contender Tyson Fury is extremely confident. He's also arrogant, saying whatever comes to mind at any given moment, not caring whom it offends.

When it involves fighting, Fury has a lot to say.

Though he is undefeated in 20 professional bouts, with 14 knockouts, Fury doesn't hold a major title belt. So what? That hasn't prevented him from proclaiming to be the world's best fighter.

"The belts don't mean [anything] to me," Fury told ESPN.com on Wednesday. "I'm the best fighter in the world."

This statement is far-reaching. When Fury speaks of being the best fighter alive, his remarks aren't limited to boxers. Fury directs his comments to all combatants. And yes, mixed martial artists are in the equation.

UFC heavyweight champion Cain Velasquez has been squarely in Fury's crosshairs for a while. He has been targeting Velasquez for several months, but Fury's taunts have yet to ruffle the champion's feathers.

A bout agreement has yet to materialize, but that hasn't stopped Fury from continuing his verbal assault.

"Absolutely, one hundred-million percent," the 24-year-old Fury said of his desire to fight Velasquez. "I've challenged Cain Velasquez to a fight three times. He's a little boy who doesn't want to fight. He said no, live on TV."

Tyson Fury

Tyson Fury If arrogance were the sole measure of greatness, then heavyweight Tyson Fury would be considered for induction to the International Boxing Hall of Fame right now.

If Fury continues winning (he's favored in Saturday's fight), it will be good for boxing in the short term, and possibly the entire fight game down the road. You see, Fury will never be satisfied until he is universally recognized as the best fighter on this planet -- including mixed martial artists.

When Fury talks of being the best fighter today, he wants it made clear that Velasquez is part of that mix. There is no merit to proclaiming yourself the best fighter when you haven't fought all the best fighters.

Fury is well aware of this fact. It's why just the mention of Velasquez raises his blood pressure.

There is no doubt in Fury's mind that he would destroy Velasquez in a fight -- whether it's under boxing or mixed martial arts rules doesn't matter to him. The 6-foot-9, 250-pound Fury simply wants a chance to prove his point.

"I would take Cain Velasquez out," Fury said. "MMA, to me, is bulls---. It's for people who can't box and like wrestling on the floor. It's rubbish.

"I'm going to show on Saturday what I'm all about, why I'm this confident and why I'm here to fight."

Fury never minces words, and he isn't one to take shortcuts. Calling out Velasquez, or any MMA heavyweight, will keep him on the hot seat for a long time.
But he couldn't care less. Fury always raises the ante.

"I'm going to finish this here and now," he said. "If this man gives me a good fight, I swear on Jesus' name I'm going to retire after the fight. Because I ain't going to be nothing like I say I'm going to be if I can't do a job on this man. I'll retire if I don't stop him.

"If I don't impress with a good performance against this man, I will retire. I'm not going to fight. Game over. I will retire on live TV.

"I mean it. I'm not here to play games."

That last line isn't directed solely to Cunningham or professional boxers. It's also intended for mixed martial artists, especially Velasquez.

Fury is always willing to put up, because he won't shut up until he's considered the best, bar none.

Hopefully Fury will get his chance to face Velasquez. If he continues beating the best boxers, maybe his opportunity to compete in UFC will come sooner rather than later.

[Dragonzbane76]

does he have any other background besides boxing?

didn't we see the same antics with couture vs. tony fight?

[Lucas]

so hes a great boxer, does this guy know what to do when he gets taken to the ground by a professional ground fighter? if not i feel sorry for him not realizing how easy its going to be for him to be taken down if he doesnt have superb takedown defense.