pre wong fei hung

[chivalrous hall]

Does anyone have any info on pre wong fei hung, hung kuen that traces its line back to hung hei goon. or what some would call village style hung gar.
interested to compare stances and bridgework, also the name of sets.

Cheers,
giuseppe

[TenTigers]

I train with an old man from Guangzhao, (I think the only word he knows in English is,'AGAIN!")who does a non-WFH Hung Kuen,coming from Luk Ah-Choy. The forms are, dan-gung fook fu kuen, seurng gung fook fu kuen,fu-hok seurng ying kuen, and tiet sien kuen. (so much for the stories of who created what)The stances are not nearly as wide and deep, as that was a recent change-after Lam Sai-Wing, and is seen more in HK. It is characterized by shorter bridging, and striking, and is extremely attack oriented. It is not played, one breath, one strike, but is an aggressive continuous barrage. Right now, emphasis is on lien gung-trainng of the claw,iron palm, and short power generation.
I know another man, who's Hung Kuen is WFH line, but not LSW,MGL or TF, and is played similar-only much more Tiger-oriented. My guess is, if you want to see old Hung-Ga, you will need to go outside of HK, and away from the wu-shu-ized stuff.

[banditshaw]

I train with an old man from Guangzhao, (I think the only word he knows in English is,'AGAIN!")who does a non-WFH Hung Kuen,coming from Luk Ah-Choy. The forms are, dan-gung fook fu kuen, seurng gung fook fu kuen,fu-hok seurng ying kuen, and tiet sien kuen. (so much for the stories of who created what)The stances are not nearly as wide and deep, as that was a recent change-after Lam Sai-Wing, and is seen more in HK. It is characterized by shorter bridging, and striking, and is extremely attack oriented. It is not played, one breath, one strike, but is an aggressive continuous barrage. Right now, emphasis is on lien gung-trainng of the claw,iron palm, and short power generation.
I know another man, who's Hung Kuen is WFH line, but not LSW,MGL or TF, and is played similar-only much more Tiger-oriented. My guess is, if you want to see old Hung-Ga, you will need to go outside of HK, and away from the wu-shu-ized stuff.

That's interesting stuff Ten. It's known that all WFH Hung Kuen comes from Luk Ah Choi and that WFH modified most of the Hung Curriculum in the modern era as well as Lam Sai Wing later on.
The Fu Hok version you speak of is of major interest because I thought it was widely known as a WFH creation.

[TenTigers]

Bandit-I know what you mean about Fu-Hok. I have heard that WFH created it. I also have heard that Hung Hei-Guen created it! (huh?) What sounds most logical, and I forgot where I heard this from, so I apologize for not giving credit-is that WFH re-formatted the forms. From what I have seen from non-WFH sets is that they are not symetrical, much the way CLF sets aren't symetrical. WFH sets are for the most part, right side, left side, as are Wing Chun. Look for a connection there as well-especially Village Hung Kuen and non HK Wing Chun, and Fukien White Crane systems. Eric Ling is definately the go to man for this.

[banditshaw]

Ten, Sounds about right. It would seem that all the major players made innovations at one time or another. Even Two Schools with the same lineage looks different on many occasions.

It is what it is right?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Gentleman,

Please continue, I haven't started class and it looks like I won't be able to until the 16th. I'm learning at least some history so allow me to continue to be "The Fly on the Wall"

[Mulong]

Pre-Huang, Feihong’s hongquan, is truly a sticky topic; maybe we shouldn't turn over this stone tenth-thousand time.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Since LSW taught as a part of his military duties, I don't believe it is a stretch of the imagination to see him change the forms to make them better for physical fitness and combat. Lower stances meant strong legs back in the old days. And teaching troups to be able to fight from both left and right side dominant positions, as found in LSW's books, also makes sense.

But I think the original forms and methods are probably forever lost, or at least cannot be separated from the more modern additions.

Ten Tigers,
How close is the fu hok seurng ying kuen your teacher does to the versions taught today? Can you give some examples?
Thanks in advance!

Richard A. Tolson

[Laukarbo]

if you want to see old Hung-Ga, you will need to go outside of HK, and away from the wu-shu-ized stuff.

so are you saying that the Hung Kuen of Lam,Chiu,Lau Family etc. is wu-shu-ized?
They are all in HK....
Well,one thing I also heard is that the stances never been that low.This could have indeed been taken from wushu...
And if one believes in the old stories it was Hung Hei Goon that took white crane in the system...
And wong fei hung only created a systematic form out of it...

[TenTigers]

"so are you saying that the Hung Kuen of Lam,Chiu,Lau Family etc. is wu-shu-ized?
They are all in HK...."

DOH!

no, I am not saying their Hung Kuen is wushuized, These are two separate thoughts-don't misunderstand me-probably due to my poor writing skillz. I meant that there are wushuized versions, as you can see on youtube,(one thought) and Later generations after LSW had deeper stances, as can be seen from the photose of LSW. (a second thought)
I believe that the emphasis on deeper stances came about due to the popularity of Hung-Ga-because of the later generations. To teach Gung-Fu properly, requires one on one instruction. Teaching a large class requires a method to ensure quality. "From the Large, comes the small" Teach large gross motor movements which will become smaller, tighter in fighting. "Handicap" the athelete and he will develop strength. As we all know, beginners will raise out of their stances. Teach a narrower horse, they will seek the easier path. Teach a deeper horse, they will end up with a good horse. Hung-Ga forms are both Gung-Faht and Kuen-Faht.

[Laukarbo]

I didnt mean stir up anything..this was a serious question without any bad intentions..
Im also really interested in pre-WFH and everything about Hung..its just hard sometimes to tell whats true or not,or getting some good infos...looking at the old Lam Sai Wing pics his stances are never that low..actually I think the low horse is just a trainings tool ..well..actually you said it all...

Ten,what are your thoughts on the history of Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen?
Somesay the first half was added later..
By whom?
The one finger to heaven..was added later?
I heard before it was just a tiger claw doing the dynamic tension bits?
Actually I learned a form from my Sifu..this form is called Wun ying Fook Fu Kuen..the dynamic tension is performed with tiger claws,plus to support ur wing chun theory..the beginning part looks a bit like wing chun,theres a3 times dynamic tension to the sides (as in gung gee)but instead the one finger to heaven its a biu gee shape.......this form comes from malaysia (ho kam wai lineage)..could this be a pre-wfh form?
My sifu says its a old hung form..have to ask him later again..
This was the first form I learned so its many,many moons ago....

so just asked(thanks toym messenger):its indeed a pre-wfh form

[TenTigers]

I had heard that many of the kiu-sao were Tiger Claws originally as well. If you see the opening of Fu Jow P'ai's forms, they use the Tiger Claw to the sides, and then pull back inwards. I was told by one Sifu, that this is the original way, and he did it in his Tiet Sien Kuen. In some Tang Fong versions, they use the crane's wing rather than single finger, in many movements.(not the tension ones to the front or sides, but when "setting a bridge.")
This is not to say that it is ONLY symbolic-indeed, there are many applications to the single finger position, even in other arts. I came back from a seminar on Hakko-Ryu and Daito Ryu, and they also use this hand as well. Chris Sayoc uses this as one of his hand positions in gripping the knife.

[Asmo]

They TT,

Some day you need to release a book (or PDF?) with your findings. Really really interesting, and you seem to find the right people all the time

Is that version of Fu Hok similar to Wong Kiew Kit's?

Theres a breakdown here: http://www.wongkk.com/shaolin/kungfu...crane-set.html

I'm sure you know these articles already, but for those who haven't read them yet, WKK wrote a few articles about the set: http://shaolin-wahnam.tripod.com/sha...r-crane01.html

[chivalrous hall]

Hey everyone thanks for all your input!

ok where to begin...sifus come from the singapore Ling Nam Assoc. through Soong Siu Por who was a classmate of Lau Chum. now we have the four pillars. and we also have dan gong fuk fu, seurn gong fuk fu, mg ying fuk fu, mang fu chu lam(directions of this set is =2 fu hok) now none of these sets have a different flavour or outer shape than the four pillars. most Lam Sai wing lines dont have any of these sets just mentioned, so its possible Soong Siu Por found these elswhere. not that the patterns r the b all 2 end all. what i was searching for was pre Wong stuff with a higher stance and lots of yeung mah emphasis with more bracing with opening and closing like Tid Sin. guys excuse me keyboard skills their not very good.

Cheers,

[TenTigers]

Rising Crane also does a Hung Kuen that is not LSW,not sure if it is pre-WFH, you would need to ask him, but he demonstrated it to me, and it wasn't as deep, and what I found most interesting was that it didn't use the chamber at the hip, but had the hands more forward...the way you would fight.
Also check out Ha Say Fu Hung Kuen-very close to what you are describing.