1 armed vrs 4=Chaos

[Black Jack II]

WARNING: Disturbing Content

An interesting scenario caught on tape showing 4 unarmed men vrs 1 mugger with a revolver in a very close range confrontation or what one of my old instructors once described as "social gunfire".

Notice as they all are struggling to gain control of the situation that the two still standing at the end seemed to be the one's attempting to redirect the field of fire and control the weapon bearing limb.

I think this is a good example of real physical and psychological chaos in its most direct form when in the context of weapons. Which bring's me to my question....

Doe's your traditional system or your own method of training address this situation and/or does it work with modern weapon disarming drills and how do you pressure test these drills if any?

http://www.youtube.com/jp.swf?video_...UAFkOg0F4o17aF

[The Willow Sword]

Oh Yes BJ i am DEFINATELY trained in my traditional system to deal with a confrontation like that and i will share it with you all because i want to really impart some WISDOM here on the forum.

You take your right or left hand and you proceed to reach in to your back pocket,you SLOWLY produce your Wallet and in a slow manner you hand your wallet over to the person with the gun. He takes your Wallet leaves, YOU survive and you thank whatever kharma or god you pray to that you are still alive.

ANYTHING else is stupid and reckless.(as we see on the video)

Im glad i was able to share this with you.

Peace,TWS

[xcakid]

Dang video won't play for me. Just freezes.

[Black Jack II]

The only thing you are doing with your right or left hand is jerking off.

Maybe one day you will get some maturity and understand that your not Syliva Brown, that you can not predict what any outcome will be, let alone being able to just hand over your wallet and walk home.

You don't think this situation has MANY minor vairations which could force such a confrontation?

Please......

[PangQuan]

suppose the attacker wants your wife/GF instead of your wallet?

do you hand her over?

i cant see the vid at work tho, they blocked youtube.com

[xcakid]

Ancient times = People carried weapons. Spears, swords, chain whips, staff, etc.

Modern times = We rely on the police and/or comply to bad guys. The wussification of civilization.

Me personally, I carry a gun everywhere it is legal for me to. Glad I live in a state that recognizes the 2nd Ammendment of the US constitution.

[Black Jack II]

Xcadid,

Kinda my point in a way, if your claiming to have a complete system, thank god you don't really see that phrase used much anymore but you know its out there, and if your claiming your system is geared towards a practical outlook on self defense than not working with modern technology in some respect is kinda asine.

That is if your making full spectrum claims, if your just saying this is what we do and we do it well, then that is different of course.

Why would a very traditional school NOT teach some firearm drills? Why not evolve?

[PangQuan]

Xcadid,

Kinda my point in a way, if your claiming to have a complete system, thank god you don't really see that phrase used much anymore but you know its out there, and if your claiming your system is geared towards a practical outlook on self defense than not working with modern technology in some respect is kinda asine.

That is if your making full spectrum claims, if your just saying this is what we do and we do it well, then that is different of course.

Why would a very traditional school NOT teach some firearm drills? Why not evolve?

because they arent truly a traditional school?

I can see why a lot of schools dont, generally these schools dont market themselves as traditional, and hopefully not self defense.

Sport schools, hippie crust schools, i can see not concerning themselves. But ya, those who coin themselves "traditional" should first and formost be concerned with the modern times and how to best adapt themselves to deal with the times. Otherwise I wouldnt consider a school like that traditional.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Unless there is NO OTHER choice, NONE, ZERO whatsoever, do NOT attempt to disarm a armed attacker, if he had ANY idea what to do, all 3 woudl have been shot.

IF you firmly believe that your life of that of a loved one is in danger, then the choice is there, just realize that, unless you have had TONS of armed VS unarmed training, you will most likely get shot or killed.

[Black Jack II]

Otherwise I wouldnt consider a school like that traditional.

Very good point.

[PangQuan]

Unless there is NO OTHER choice, NONE, ZERO whatsoever, do NOT attempt to disarm a armed attacker, if he had ANY idea what to do, all 3 woudl have been shot.

IF you firmly believe that your life of that of a loved one is in danger, then the choice is there, just realize that, unless you have had TONS of armed VS unarmed training, you will most likely get shot or killed.

I agree with this totally.

though i have and do enjoy knife/gun disarm techniques and training, the best use for these I think are in the movies.

unless, as you point out, you have ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER OPTIONS. At this point you will wish for **** sure that you had done some dis arming apps....

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Of course in that case there would have been 4 witnesses, who may have been shot BECAUSE they gave up thier wallets and tried to run......

[xcakid]

Xcadid,

Kinda my point in a way, if your claiming to have a complete system, thank god you don't really see that phrase used much anymore but you know its out there, and if your claiming your system is geared towards a practical outlook on self defense than not working with modern technology in some respect is kinda asine.

That is if your making full spectrum claims, if your just saying this is what we do and we do it well, then that is different of course.

Why would a very traditional school NOT teach some firearm drills? Why not evolve?

I don't believe there is a complete system out there. There are so many variable when it comes to a street confrontation, there can be endless possibilities. But apparently based on some folks, BJJ is the end all and be all when it comes to fighting. Who knew?!?!!?

Martial Arts really have not evolve with the times. Be it the reason of social outlook or various legal ramifications. As a matter of fact I believe it has been restricted and have regressed.

What a lot of the progressive thinking people fail to see is our genetic make up. We are predators and have the capability for violence. We also have a lack of discipline. So once our buttons at pushed, we become violent. Now we are repressing that and people actually buy into it. We ban guns. We curtail from training a certain technique for its "deadly application". We hold back on training cause it "too hard" and not everyone can participate (or perhaps my school won't make money). All this comes out to being a wussy. Me personally, I did not climb to the top of the food chain to regress back to the bottom.

Let's take kid that grew up in the 50's. Did they ride around in bike with helmets on? Let's take the kids of today, they ride around on bike with helmets, knee pads, wrist pads, etc. Kids of the 50's are still alive and well today.

We have a culture of wussies. And will continue to become worse. Martial arts will regress to single block and single punch. More techiniques will be edited out cause it is too dangerous, or too difficult for the "average joe" to perform.

Modern weapons such as firearms will never be taught. As I have mentioned, martial arts has remained stagnant and/or regressed. I older times martial artist would train in the most devastating weapon of its time. Not today, uh uh.

Video like this you posted horrifies people. It shouldn't, its a fact of life.

[Black Jack II]

Excellent post and I agree in many respects.

I also think this absurd stagnication of what some believe to be traditional thinking is what gave rise to the rbsd field for those that were sick of the absurd pseudo science and outdated viewpoints a lot of so-called traditionalists may tend to cling onto.

No pre-conflict training nor post conflict training, a lack of incorporation of all ranges found in fighting, i.e ground, less attention paid to modern weapons such as sticks, guns and knifes, a large focus on static training instead of working in a alive enviroment, bizzare and uncomfortable fine motor reactions to high stress actions, a outlook towards occult vitalism such as chi in the format of self defense and pressure point knockouts......................

It's a broad brush stroke but like all sterotypes there is truth to it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I think it's important to train unarmed against knives, sticks, guns, etc. at least once-a-month or so. Just to stay relatively sharp - if that's possible. Not because I believe that you have a good chance of not getting stabbed, shot, etc. - since the odds of coming out unharmed are not good at all.

But you might. (Or at the very least - you might survive).

So as I see it, occasional training like this is important because you could indeed find yourself in a situation someday wherein you have no choice but to try and defend yourself or a loved one against a weapon.

So why not do some preparation?

As for that video, assuming that they should have fought back (and that could be debated endlessly - although it was probably a very poor decision)...clearly one problem was that throwing punches from a distance - by the guy who was fatally shot - was a very bad move.

You need to be going for the arm/elbow/hand that's holding the gun, first and foremost - and all subsequent (or simultaneous striking) needs to be subordinated to that main goal.

But getting back to the whole question of should they have fought back in the first place: rightly or wrongly, one of your friends decides to go for the gun - and the scuffle breaks out. As I see it, you then have no choice but to join in and go for the gun arm.