e-mail about a tournament

[Shadow Skill]

What's your take on this. This is a e-mail between my sifu and Pete Starr regarding a tournament.

Hello, Everyone!

I've been batting around an idea...a tournament for traditional martial arts practitioners - one in which practitioners of both grappling (judo, jujutsu, aikido) and percussive (karate, kung-fu) arts can compete on equal footing.
I think it would be great fun...but I'll need your input and help. Maybe it's not really feasible but maybe it is. We'll see. I'll toss it into the meeting today and see where we go with it-

:-)
Pete Starr

My school would be interested in a full contact tournament. We would not be interested in a karate type point system tournament. We would like weapons as well as forms to be included as well. Please reply if this is agreeable.

Best regards,
Sifu Ralph Young


Hi, Ralph!

Oh, yeah - we'd have traditional forms and weapons...but the sparring wouldn't be full-contact (if nothing else, the insurance would kill us!)...I'm looking at an event like one of the events used by Master Nishiyama in his Internat'l Traditional Karate Assn. It's freestyle one-step which is safer than freestyle sparring but much more difficult to do...we'd have to get the instructors who are interested in it to attend a special session to look at it and train for judging it.
It'd be a lot of fun but would require real skill...I'll be sending out some info on it to get everyone's thoughts.

Thanks!
Pete

[lkfmdc]

but the sparring wouldn't be full-contact (if nothing else, the insurance would kill us!)...

USKBA
IKF
KICK/WUKO
WKA

what do they all have in common? Tournaments with full contact fighting where they can, gasp, afford the insurance!

WHAT A CROCK OF CRAP!

Lord forbid they do any sort of contact fighting, might show some of their students that things are different than they are being led to believe....

four hundred thumbs down

[SevenStar]

agreed. that is BS.

[Shadow Skill]

When Sifu first moved here from Florida Pete Starr inivited him to participate in a tournament. After arriving Pete Starr suggested that he only demonstrte forms and maybe judge not fight. And then rattles off a list of things he can't do if he fights.

Recently Starr talked to Ralph and said I know Poo Yee is good I've met him before. Then said something to the like, Gin Foon Mark he's so fast "there is no way that Sh!t works". ( yes Sifu trained under Poo Yee in Florida ) not realizing that Sifu on occasion vists Gin Foon in Minnisota. Sifu's response was well lets find out if that sh!t works.

I've also heard other stories that give me the impression that someone is scared.
I guess thats why his book is called "Making of a Butterfly" instead of "Making of a Warrior"

[street_fighter]

uughh point sparring, and forms competitions... confirming my belief that starr is a pansy

[YiLiQuan1]

Who's your teacher, Shadow Skill? I'm curious...

My teacher is Pete Starr...





Perhaps you ought to contact Sifu Starr directly and ask what his motivations were, rather than posting anonymously on the internet, talking smack, and generally making an ass of yourself and your teacher...

Then again, "warriors" wouldn't have to be encouraged to do so. They wouldn't hesitate to contact the person with whom they took issue immediately instead of asking complete strangers for their opinions about a situation the strangers weren't party to...

Since you live in Omaha, why don't you pop down to their classes and air your grievances instead of hiding behind your keyboard?

[P. Starr]

To Whom It May Concern-

Whoever this "Shadowskill" character is (note that he lacks the courage to reveal his true name - ), his story is utter hogwash with bits and pieces of truth tossed in here and there.

I don't recall inviting Mr. Young to a tournament when he first arrived from Florida...maybe yes, maybe no. Ralph and I have been friends for some time now. I do know, however, that I never told Mr. Young that he could not participate in the fighting competition of any tournament whatsoever. THAT part of Shadowskill's story never happened.

Shadowskill's reference to my remarks regarding Gin Foon Mark are also way off base...I said that Mr. Mark is incredibly fast and when I first saw his skill, I couldn't understand how it worked. That's a bit different from "Da Shadow's" quote.

As for the full-contact tournament business - yes, I have suggested putting together a tournament for TRADITIONAL martial arts...not full contact. If anyone out there would care to donate the cost of a million-dollar insurance policy for such an event, I'd be happy to include it. Really. Just ante up the few thousand that it takes and we'll do it.

But....

When I say "full contact" that's just what I mean. No gloves. No footpads. No headgear or chestpads. It'd be bare-knuckle - no restrictions. THAT'S full contact. Anything else is half-contact with restrictive rules.

Or if "Da Shadow" prefers, he's more than welcome - as is anyone - to visit my school and ask for a full-contact match with me or any of my senior students. Any time we have class...come on down. But leave your marshmallow pads at home.

As for fighting under "traditional rules" that are currently in use in international competition, I seriously doubt that Mr. Shadow would last more than a few seconds. It isn't "point fighting" as was used back in the day - it's considerably different. But it's controlled.

It's one thing to hide behind a keyboard and tell lies and complain. It's quite another thing to go directly to the person with whom you have a problem and meet face to face. Mr. Shadow, would you be man enough to do me that kindness? Or will you stay hidden in the shadows as you name suggests?

Love,
P. Starr

[TenTigers]

"The Making of a Butterfly" was written by Phillip Starr.

[Hau Tien]

My goodness.

From Mr. Shadow Skill's profile here:

http://www.myspace.com/bbub

That should give you an idea of who he is.

Cheers!

D. Scott Dellinger

To Whom It May Concern-

Whoever this "Shadowskill" character is (note that he lacks the courage to reveal his true name - ), his story is utter hogwash with bits and pieces of truth tossed in here and there.

I don't recall inviting Mr. Young to a tournament when he first arrived from Florida...maybe yes, maybe no. Ralph and I have been friends for some time now. I do know, however, that I never told Mr. Young that he could not participate in the fighting competition of any tournament whatsoever. THAT part of Shadowskill's story never happened.

Shadowskill's reference to my remarks regarding Gin Foon Mark are also way off base...I said that Mr. Mark is incredibly fast and when I first saw his skill, I couldn't understand how it worked. That's a bit different from "Da Shadow's" quote.

As for the full-contact tournament business - yes, I have suggested putting together a tournament for TRADITIONAL martial arts...not full contact. If anyone out there would care to donate the cost of a million-dollar insurance policy for such an event, I'd be happy to include it. Really. Just ante up the few thousand that it takes and we'll do it.

But....

When I say "full contact" that's just what I mean. No gloves. No footpads. No headgear or chestpads. It'd be bare-knuckle - no restrictions. THAT'S full contact. Anything else is half-contact with restrictive rules.

Or if "Da Shadow" prefers, he's more than welcome - as is anyone - to visit my school and ask for a full-contact match with me or any of my senior students. Any time we have class...come on down. But leave your marshmallow pads at home.

As for fighting under "traditional rules" that are currently in use in international competition, I seriously doubt that Mr. Shadow would last more than a few seconds. It isn't "point fighting" as was used back in the day - it's considerably different. But it's controlled.

It's one thing to hide behind a keyboard and tell lies and complain. It's quite another thing to go directly to the person with whom you have a problem and meet face to face. Mr. Shadow, would you be man enough to do me that kindness? Or will you stay hidden in the shadows as you name suggests?

Love,
P. Starr

[lkfmdc]

As for the full-contact tournament business - yes, I have suggested putting together a tournament for TRADITIONAL martial arts...not full contact. If anyone out there would care to donate the cost of a million-dollar insurance policy for such an event, I'd be happy to include it. Really. Just ante up the few thousand that it takes and we'll do it.

Special Markets Group insures full contact fighitng for around $600..... with the rates you guys charge for your tournaments that means you only need around 8 people to cover the cost of that. So why won't you offer full contact? It isn't the cost of the insurance

But....

When I say "full contact" that's just what I mean. No gloves. No footpads. No headgear or chestpads. It'd be bare-knuckle - no restrictions. THAT'S full contact. Anything else is half-contact with restrictive rules.

LMFAO, ok super warrior, and your students would enter this?

[YiLiQuan1]

"The Making of a Butterfly" was written by Phillip Starr.

His name is Phillip Starr, certainly, but he goes by the nickname "Pete." Not your fault for not knowing that. Living in Omaha, it's likely that Shadow Skill reasonably would have...

LMFAO, ok super warrior, and your students would enter this?

I would... Whether I win or lose isn't the point for me. The only concern I'd have, and the one that would likely keep me from entering, is that the Army (who I have to defer to) might frown on my participating in a bare-knuckle fight.

Honestly, though, knowing how restrictive Nebraska's boxing commission has been in the past, I'm not sure if such a contest would be possible. There'd have to be at least some kind of hand/foot/head gear worn...

Ultimately, though, the entire point of the tournament (from what I know of it) is to bring TMA schools together, reinforce traditional training standards and values, and to drag some of the local schools away from the "creative" and "musical" forms competitions that they're only further degrading TMA with. It's not bad enough that Nebraska is inundated with ATA TKD schools (and Omaha has at least 1 or 2 that also teach Krav Maga), but then there are plenty of schools that think making up forms and setting them to music constitutes "real" martial arts (or worse yet "extreme" martial arts).

I've known Sifu Starr for a long time - 22 years so far - and though he's got strong opinions, he's never been one to go out of his way to pick a fight with someone just for show. Of course, I've never known him, or any of our students (some of whom did compete in the ring years back), to back down when someone was talking smack...

lkfmdc - I normally agree with your opinions and perspectives, 90% or more. This time, though, I have to say I don't appreciate your attitude toward my teacher. You don't know him, you don't know his motives. You're basing your responses on the comments of a person who, in all likelihood, is pursuing his own agenda against my teacher, his school, and/or his students. I'm not asking for apologies, just a little consideration in the future. The old man has done his time, punched his card, and earned a little respect. He fought in tournaments "back in the day" when a "point" fight usually left a little of someone's blood on the floor. Hell, even when I started the point tournaments were only a hair shy of full contact... Not UFC or K-1 level, to be sure, but they were pretty rough nonetheless.

Have to get ready for work. More later...

[lkfmdc]

Asking amateurs, but especially regular students, to fight no gear is stupid (oh, got to be nice, "silly" ok?)

Want to fight no gear and blood and guts? PAY US. That's the way pro's fight

lkfmdc - I normally agree with your opinions and perspectives, 90% or more. This time, though, I have to say I don't appreciate your attitude toward my teacher. You don't know him, you don't know his motives. You're basing your responses on the comments of a person who, in all likelihood, is pursuing his own agenda against my teacher, his school, and/or his students. I'm not asking for apologies, just a little consideration in the future. The old man has done his time, punched his card, and earned a little respect. He fought in tournaments "back in the day" when a "point" fight usually left a little of someone's blood on the floor. Hell, even when I started the point tournaments were only a hair shy of full contact... Not UFC or K-1 level, to be sure, but they were pretty rough nonetheless.

Have to get ready for work. More later...

Actually, this is the same Starr who took over the AAU Chinese martial arts program, took it away from the Kyokushinkai guy who did nothing with it, yes? Ken Lo and I were asked by Starr to set up the AAU in NY. We tired but failed because of the way he ran it.... I disinctly remember instructions to write rules and run events so no one who wasn't a "kung fu person" could enter the fighting divisions. If kung fu really is a superior method, why worry about who enters the fighting divisions? Then I remember the "style points" we were supposed to award a guy who "fought like kung fu", ie you could get your butt beat up but if you looked "like kung fu" you were supposed to win?

NOTHING PERSONAL, nothing personal at all, I just don't agree with his vision

[MasterKiller]

Honestly, though, knowing how restrictive Nebraska's boxing commission has been in the past, I'm not sure if such a contest would be possible. There'd have to be at least some kind of hand/foot/head gear worn...

Dude, we have amateur and pro MMA in Oklahoma now. If we can do it, you can too. 4 oz gloves feel like bare-knuckles when you get smacked with them.

[P. Starr]

In the AAU compedtition program there was, I repeat, NEVER anything awarded for someone who "looked like he was doing kung-fu." Lkfmdc, Where on earth did you ever come up with that notion? Do you have one of the old competition rules handbooks? I do. If you will kindly direct me to the pages where that statement is made, I'll concede. But it just isn't there. Never was.

The rules were NOT made so that only kung-fu people could fight in our tournaments. Many karate stylists did. How many of our tournaments did you attend?

The AAU proghram in NYC had problems due to political issues stemming from another kung-fu group in that area. It had nothing to do with the rules of competition.

And - my students would dearly love to step onto the floor with someone like "Da Shadow" without protective gear. They might even fight each other first to see who gets to do the honors.

So, since the insurance is, as you claim, a mere $600 would you want to purchase it for us so we can have a full-contact event? No one else is much interested in such an event...so it'd pretty much consist of only two schools getting involved.

I'm just thinking of conducting a traditional-type event here...to promote the traditional martial arts as opposed to the sports-oriented stuff which so many people think is the REAL thing. I have no interest in seeing who's the toughest or who has the biggest ****. I'm way too old for that foolishness and in any case, it certainly isn't martial arts.

[YiLiQuan1]

Asking amateurs, but especially regular students, to fight no gear is stupid (oh, got to be nice, "silly" ok?)

Granted. But it's a **** fine way to weed out the wannabes that talk smack about how tough they are, and how willing they are to go the distance, when in reality they couldn't take the risk... Those who are really willing to walk the walk compete in already established venues (e.g. local NHB/MMA fights). Those that don't, well, they spend their time on the internet talking smack about everyone else...

That's why there's MMA fights and non-MMA/point fights. Different venues for people who are differently inclined.

Want to fight no gear and blood and guts? PAY US. That's the way pro's fight

I agree. I wish I wasn't the age I am, and I wish the Army hadn't banged me up as much as it did... I want to compete in MMA, I really do. However, and I've had long discussions with my wife about this, I have to look at the reality of the situation... I'm pushing 40, I've got bad knees, a bad back, so what I'm capable of doing in preparation for, and during, such a bout is probably beyond me at this point. If I could, I would, but I have to be mature about this and recognize my limitations...

Actually, this is the same Starr who took over the AAU Chinese martial arts program, took it away from the Kyokushinkai guy who did nothing with it, yes?

Same guy.

I disinctly remember instructions to write rules and run events so no one who wasn't a "kung fu person" could enter the fighting divisions. If kung fu really is a superior method, why worry about who enters the fighting divisions?

I was part of the AAU at that time, and I remember seeing the rules being written from scratch. I don't recall any rules necessarily preventing KF folks from participating, though I do recall their were specific performance standards outlined to prevent sloppy, back-turning, uncontrolled flying-jump kick stuff... I think I may still have the old rules in one of my boxes somewhere...

Then I remember the "style points" we were supposed to award a guy who "fought like kung fu", ie you could get your butt beat up but if you looked "like kung fu" you were supposed to win?

That is something I flatly do not recall seeing. I do remember that Yang Jwing-Ming and Jeff Bolt, in their large scale event, had some bizarre rules for awarding points for "strategy" and "successful blocking," but we never did anything like that in AAU... It was a full point for a proper technique, 1/2 point for what could have been proper except for minor errors, and no points for sloppily thrown garbage.

NOTHING PERSONAL, nothing personal at all, I just don't agree with his vision

No worries... I don't expect anyone to agree wholly with him or me. I disagree with him regularly on his perspectives on MMA. The only thing I'm in disagreement with at this point is Shadow Skill's behind-the-back BS. He lives in Omaha, so does Sifu Starr. If Shadow Skill has issues, he should wander down and air them publicly instead of coming online and asking strangers for their opinions about stuff that, apparently, Shadow Skill is/was only half informed about in the first place...

Thanks, though. I appreciate your honesty, and the courteous tone of your post. Seriously.