e-mail about a tournament

[lkfmdc]

In the AAU compedtition program there was, I repeat, NEVER anything awarded for someone who "looked like he was doing kung-fu." Lkfmdc, Where on earth did you ever come up with that notion? Do you have one of the old competition rules handbooks? I do. If you will kindly direct me to the pages where that statement is made, I'll concede. But it just isn't there. Never was.

The rules were NOT made so that only kung-fu people could fight in our tournaments. Many karate stylists did. How many of our tournaments did you attend?

I sat in every meeting trying to establish AAU in NY, for almost a year.... and as we both know nothing really ever got done.... TCMA is always about politics but both Jeff Bolt's organization and the USA WKF did events in NY, they apparently got past the politics. Thre was a lot more to why AAU didn't work in NY, but that was like 20 years ago so why even dig it up?

So, since the insurance is, as you claim, a mere $600 would you want to purchase it for us so we can have a full-contact event?

Sure, if you give me every penny of the registration money you collect

No one else is much interested in such an event...so it'd pretty much consist of only two schools getting involved.

Yeah, you can get 300 schools involved in forms and weapons competition but when it comes to full contact fighting, no one seems interested. That is precisely what is wrong with Chinese martial art today

I'm just thinking of conducting a traditional-type event here...to promote the traditional martial arts as opposed to the sports-oriented stuff which so many people think is the REAL thing. I have no interest in seeing who's the toughest or who has the biggest ****. I'm way too old for that foolishness and in any case, it certainly isn't martial arts.

Nah, wouldn't want to have any realistic contact fighting would we?

That's my point, exactly, you have no interest in fighting events.

It's hysterical that you call full contact fighting "sports oriented" yet ignore that you are promoting forms, weapons and POINT SPARRING

[YiLiQuan1]

I sat in every meeting trying to establish AAU in NY, for almost a year.... and as we both know nothing really ever got done.... TCMA is always about politics

Ain't that the truth... At the first 3 AAU National Tournaments, there were several big name people (names withheld - their identities aren't important, and folks who were there know what happened) who were shocked that a) they weren't paid, b) they weren't received as visiting dignitaries, and c) people didn't crowd them for autographs, photos, and other ego boosting activities...

I called the AAU director for WA to volunteer for the state AAU CMA director job. Instead of saying "well, first you have to have your AAU membership, then you do X, Y, and Z, and voila," I received an incredibly rude, overly loud, tirade about how without an AAU membership I "wasn't going to do s..." Um, no kidding... The guy didn't care about my past experience, didn't care that I knew what the requirements were. He just yelled at me, cursed at me, and I told him that he needed me WAY more than I needed him... That was the last of that.

but both Jeff Bolt's organization and the USA WKF did events in NY, they apparently got past the politics. Thre was a lot more to why AAU didn't work in NY, but that was like 20 years ago so why even dig it up?

Bolt managed to make things work with the same personalities I referred to above. Whether that was due to his amazing ability with people, or because he deferred to their ego, I don't know. I know that we planted our feet firmly against outrageous requests from "VIPs" and that ****ed them off. Maybe Bolt catered to them more, to ensure a harmonious outcome. Whatever. Good for him that his event worked out.

Yeah, you can get 300 schools involved in forms and weapons competition but when it comes to full contact fighting, no one seems interested. That is precisely what is wrong with Chinese martial art today

I agree. The unfortunate reality is that forms queens think they're capable of fighting. They misinterpret and misunderstand what they're doing. Personally, I think MMA venues are exactly the shot in the arm MA in general needed... Good, realistic, hard-hitting, gladiatorial events where what's "real" is exactly that.

That being said, I agree that much of what is seen in MMA venues (maybe less so UFC level stuff, but that WCL crap is scary) "isn't" representative of the ideal that martial artists try to uphold. Successful application aside, the quality of some fighters isn't all that high... I'm not saying I could necessarily do better, but I can watch a professional sporting event, with no professional sporting participation under my belt, and still point out the crappy players...

Nah, wouldn't want to have any realistic contact fighting would we?

I don't think that's the issue... As you pointed out, most amateurs probably have no business stepping up for a full contact bout, even against another amateur.

That's my point, exactly, you have no interest in fighting events.

Again, I don't think that's the point. From what I've heard about Sifu's intentions/ideas, it's about injecting the greater Omaha area's TMA community with a dose of reinforced standards instead of the sloppy, form queen crap it's been leaning toward for 2 decades or more...

It's hysterical that you call full contact fighting "sports oriented" yet ignore that you are promoting forms, weapons and POINT SPARRING

I think it may be a matter of semantics... I think by "sport" oriented, Sifu's referring to the somewhat less than stellar techniques exhibited by MMA fighters (I mean, please... even some of the top level fighters have really crappy kicks and punches... sure they hit hard, but they're hitting hard because of strength, not quality technique). I don't think he'd deny for a second the unrealistic nature of point fighting. I say that because I remember, as a junior student with about 3 months in training, in preparation for a local tournament, Sifu admonished us not to misunderstand what the sparring was - a game of tag. I also remember him telling us "this is for tournament, not for fighting" when he taught us how to deal with things in a point sparring situation. We spent all of 2 or 3 classes the week prior to a tournament "refreshing" ourselves on how to play that game. The attitude was "if you can hit for real, hard, without pads, and you can take a hit, for real, without pads, then all you have to do is back off the commitment in a point fight." The reverse wasn't true - if you only point fight, you can't just turn around and crank it up a notch.

Anyway...

[P. Starr]

Certainly, there have been LOTS of bizarre stories about the AAU program (when I chaired it) and me as well. Most of them have been started by people who had/have their own agenda, who wanted to make money from the program rather than promote Chinese martial arts, or who were just too lazy to get involved with it. It was a great success back in the day and I'm proud of what we achieved.

I have no interest in people wearing spandex and boxing gloves trying to pound the bejeezus out of each other. To me, that's not martial arts at all. Just my opinion. But the martial disciplines of kung-fu and karate were never intended for use as sports. People like "Da Shadow" only want to try to show the world how tough they are and if someone declines to oblige them (for any reason), they start screaming, "Chicken." From a distance.

I will email "Da Shadow's" teacher to let him know that he's got a loose cannon with a big mouth rolling around. And if the keyboard warrior wants to come visit me at my school, he's certainly welcome to step forward and air his complaints. If he's so all-fired excited about having a full-contact event in this area, I suggest that he speak to his teacher about hosting one.

Frankly, I seriously doubt that Shadow will step out into the light and meet with me. People of his ilk like to make loud noises but that's about all they're good for.

[lkfmdc]

I have no interest in people wearing spandex and boxing gloves trying to pound the bejeezus out of each other. To me, that's not martial arts at all. Just my opinion. But the martial disciplines of kung-fu and karate were never intended for use as sports.

Ah, you see, that is exactly what I was objecting to all along. I think your vision is both misinformed and flat out wrong. The hundreds, perhaps THOUSANDS, of TCMA styles weren't created so we could concentrate on the meaning of granola and have a love fest, they were created for FIGHTING.... but today, in this country, there is practically nothing left of TCMA fighting traditions.

If you ask me, in my opinion, the vision the so called leaders of TCMA SHOULD be following is to get rid of the pc mumbo jumbo, the fairy tales and the crap and re-invigorate our arts

[P. Starr]

In many respects, I couldn't agree more. The "pretty fields and flowers" Taijiquan has killed that martial art. The fairy tales about the exploits of various masters and legendary stories about superhuman techniques have done us tremendous harm...largely because a lot of people actually bought into that stuff and believed it!!!

Nowadays we have the sports-oritented folks who do musical forms that more closely resemble a cross between sloppy gymnastics and break dancing, modern point fighting which is a game of tag without any real martial art technique, and weapons forms done with what appear to be tin swords...and the problem is that the many of those who are interested in learning martial arts actually believe that this is the real thing!

For theat matter, many of the competitors who participate in those kinds of events believe that they're doing real martial arts. I say, "Fishnipples." They wouldn't know real martial arts if they stepped knee-deep in it.

So I put together a group of traditionally-minded instructors in this area to promote traditional martial arts. Nothing political (I'm done with politics); just an informal group to put together events for the public as well as events for our students. And it's working very well.

I have to respectfully disagree with the idea of traditional martial arts going "full contact" to see what works and who's the best. That's like teaching knife-fighting with live blades or holding combat shooting competitions where people shoot at each other. To me, if two genuine martial arts people (who possess real skill) don lightweight gloves and have at it, one or both of them should end up crippled or dead.

However, the gloves actually decentralizes the force of the punch and alters the striking surface of the fist. That's why the old-time bare-knuckle boxer (who used to use straight thrusts) switched to using hooking punches. They found that they could generate power along the outer corner of the glove by using such techniques...and this is what happened in the case of "full contact karate."

I prefer to use more controlled settings but I know some people will disagree and that's okay. But do I want to promote the old "point fighting" stuff or the "point fighting" events that we see nowadays? Not a chance. I want to promote genuine martial arts. No gloves, no headgear, no chest pads...just sharp, clean, controlled technique.

[P. Starr]

By the way, I met your teacher, Master Chan, many eons ago at one of Tat Wong's big tournaments. He didn't speak much English and a student translated for us - Master Chan asked if he could have a set of AAU medals...I didn't have any on that first day, so I told him to come back the next day and I'd give him a complete set.

He showed up and I gave him the medals for his collection. He was a wonderful man and a true hero. I've often told my students about him. You had a great teacher! Please extend my best wishes to your classmates-

[Shadow Skill]

People like "Da Shadow" only want to try to show the world how tough they are and if someone declines to oblige them (for any reason), they start screaming, "Chicken." From a distance.

It's not about me being tough. IMO a tornament is competition. If someone punche me from eight feet away I'm not gonna block it. POINT!, make some contact. spm is a in close fighting system, I feel being 8-10 inches away limits our system. To me if you don't hit me it's not a point. If someone scores a point on me I'd like to know

Everyone in the traditional martial arts group my not be for full contact, ok then go medium contact. you want control, medium contact must show control. you want skill, striking full speed and making contact and not harming someone to me shows more skill then long range no contact. is my point.

Medium contact insurance can't be $1million.

[YiLiQuan1]

Everyone in the traditional martial arts group my not be for full contact, ok then go medium contact. you want control, medium contact must show control. you want skill, striking full speed and making contact and not harming someone to me shows more skill then long range no contact. is my point.

Every "point" tournament I've ever attended in Omaha, from 1985 on, emphasized "jacket contact," i.e. making contact solely with the surface of the uniform, with minimal penetration. That was the scoring standard. The reality was that there was plenty of penetration - enough that more often than not you felt the punch/kick that hit you in the front jiggle you in the back. In one tournament, when I was just starting out, my opponent did a cross-stepping kick that impacted just below my knee and scraped down my shin to the ankle... I was almost unable to continue, but I wasn't going to allow some stankbird to take me out that easily. He still won, but I kept fighting to the end. In another bout, I knocked my opponent clean off his feet (poorly timed kick on his side, well timed punch on mine). I was fouled out for excessive contact, but the judge pulled us both together and told the "winner" that he lost, he knew he'd lost, and not to get uppity about winning a game of tag...

Shadow Skill, I'm guessing you may have misspoken previously. I highly recommend going over to Sifu Starr's class and taking a good look at what we do and how we train. I think you'll see that striking 8 - 10 inches from the striking surface is definitely not what we do. When you're hit, you know it, and you usually stay hit...

[P. Starr]

Shadowskill - you apparently haven't been to many tournaments. I've never been to one where a blow that ends 8-10 inches away is called a point. Not ever.

Like Yiliquan 1 says, we use "jacket contact" in competition. That usually ends with some contact being made.

"Medium contact?" This is the same sort of thing I encountered many moons ago when I was competing - a tournament host suggested "light contact" to the face and head, "medium contact" to the body... so I asked him if he would allow one of the competitors to strike him in the face with "light contact" so we'd all know what it was. Of course, he declined. What is "light" for one person is "medium" or even "heavy" for another.

You're certainly welcome to stop by our class and work "medium contact" with my students. But I don't think you'd want to do it a second time. Like I said, everyone's definition of "medium contact" is a bit different.

I don't advocate the use of hand and foot pads because they alter the striking surface of the hands and feet and result in fighters throwing real technique to the wind...and trying to whack each other as hard as they can. And that's not martial arts.

A competition should not be about who's tougher. It should be about quality of technique and fighting skill. And it should be a learning experience.

However, you also stepped over the line by making inferences regarding my character. If you plan to become a teacher as your MySpace blog suggests, I recommend that you learn to mind your manners so that others don't have to do it for you.

[WinterPalm]

I was actually thinking of trying to organize a tournament based solely on chi projections for the ultra-contact division. Are any of you guys interested in that?

[Sidi]

I'm not one for Macho ****ing contests, but I can't sit silent on this. Shadow Skill, my name is Chris and we have spoken on the phone and met in person. I was impressed with your soft-spoken, humble demeanor. However airing on a public forum, a private email between my Sifu and yours was a class-less thing to do. There is a lot the different martial art systems can teach each other. This cannot happen when petty bickering takes precedent. If you or your teacher has a problem with Sifu Starr, you should let him know to his face. I don't know everything about my teacher's past, but I do know that he has produced some great fighters and his name commands respect in our local martial arts community. Fifty-one years training and 40-some years teaching deserves some respect. Mind your elders.

[YiLiQuan1]

I was actually thinking of trying to organize a tournament based solely on chi projections for the ultra-contact division. Are any of you guys interested in that?

Sure! You stand in front of me projecting your qi, and I'll be sure to take you to the ground and RNC you while you channel the energy of the planet...

I was impressed with your soft-spoken, humble demeanor. However airing on a public forum, a private email between my Sifu and yours was a class-less thing to do.

Some folks don't put a lot of thought into what happens between typing and clicking "submit reply." That, and it's really easy to succumb to the temptation of saying things on the internet that would never be voiced in person. Most people are too cowardly to actually step up and speak their minds, even more are too common and mean to speak freely but do so with some degree of tact. Those kinds of traits are simply no longer taught, reinforced, or even considered these days. The safety of one's keyboard and anonymous screen name provide a measure of protection that sidelines any sense of proper behavior.

I disagree with Sifu regularly. I'm still young, still growing, so some of the things I'm told by my elders gets questioned. I'm lucky enough that Sifu puts up with me and lets me do so without cuffing me on the back of the head. The difference is that when I disagree, I do so with courtesy, tact, and some small degree of respect so he understands it's not a personal issue, I'm not "calling him out," I'm just trying to reach the heart of the matter.

Shadow Skill bypassed all of that for the easy comfort of internet discourse, with no thought of the repercussions. I doubt he thought any Yiliquan folks would find this, I doubt he thought Sifu was a registered member here, and so he likely felt quite safe saying whatever he pleased... Oops. I guess he was wrong.

This cannot happen when petty bickering takes precedent.

Bickering, provinciality, and isolationism are the hallmarks of Chinese martial arts. It's a rare moment when people can set aside their tribal loyalties for the benefit of the community at large. There are some arts, Wing Chun, several Mantis styles, and the internal arts, that are plagued by this more than others... It's almost part of the training - learn a punch, discredit your rival, learn a kick, discredit your rival, etc.

If you or your teacher has a problem with Sifu Starr, you should let him know to his face.

My favorite was how SS talked about "warrior" this and that, implying Sifu was anything but, yet he lacks the conviction, courage, and discipline to speak his mind in person. Typical. I think the "keyboard warrior" title fits rather well here.

Personally, I'm looking forward to coming back to Omaha next year... I'm going to have to make some social calls and meet some folks in person to open a few dialogues...

[Shadow Skill]

Shadow Skill bypassed all of that for the easy comfort of internet discourse, with no thought of the repercussions. I doubt he thought any Yiliquan folks would find this, I doubt he thought Sifu was a registered member here, and so he likely felt quite safe saying whatever he pleased... Oops. I guess he was wrong.

Ha that's not it at all. I posted on a forum because forums are for discusions, I wanted others opinions on the tournament. as far as Yili people on here hell Star promoted his book on here I figured you people would see. Truth is I was after others opinion and if you have 2cents feel free to add them. thats what a forum is for.

[sleepingfist]

Chris... Chris who the same Chris who came to our class and couldn't do 10 regular push-ups, Same Chris who gave up and left class early, Same Chris who didn't come back because our exercises alone were too physical. Same Chris? Respect your elders. your rank is what. DO MORE THEN 10 PUSH-UPS IN A ROW THEN TALK.

[WinterPalm]

Sure! You stand in front of me projecting your qi, and I'll be sure to take you to the ground and RNC you while you channel the energy of the planet... .

Bwahahahahaha...you really think that crap works against the true projections of chi that emanate from my soul?! You fool!
Yeah, you try that "RNC" when you have no arms! Bwahahaha!