e-mail about a tournament

[Shadow Skill]

"I'm looking at an event like one of the events used by Master Nishiyama in his Internat'l Traditional Karate Assn. It's freestyle one-step"

"Like Yiliquan 1 says, we use "jacket contact" in competition. That usually ends with some contact being made."

Now is it freestyle one step, or is Jacket contact. or are they the same thing?

[lkfmdc]

To me, if two genuine martial arts people (who possess real skill) don lightweight gloves and have at it, one or both of them should end up crippled or dead.

Sadly, I'm old enough to remember how the traditional martial arts world went nuts over "kickboxing" (then called full contact karate). You HAD to pull the techniques because if you didn't, someone was gonna die!!!!! Well, after Joe Lewis, Bill Wallace, Benny the Jet, Don Wilson all did their thing people realized that reverse punches don't make heads explode and side kicks don't rupture internal organs

Dear lord, this is 2007, we've had full contact karate, we moved on to Thai boxing, then the early bare knuckle UFC's, now we're living in the modern MMA era....

It's sad to see that some people don't move forward....

[P. Starr]

Heads can get hurt very badly if you don't wear padded mittens and your technique is correct.

Clearly, Freestyle One-Step isn't very well known - jacket contact can very easily be used with this form of practice fighting. The difference between this and regular sparring could be likened to playing billiards - in one case you call your shots and everything has to be just so and in the other case you just smack the ball and hope for the best.

It's an old practice method that's being applied in a new, innovative way and I'd like to look into it.

I'm not going to get into a arguement about the legitimacy of "full contact" (which it isn't) or any of that business. I practice traditional martial arts and I'm not in favor of slapping on pads, reverting to sloppy boxing techniques and calling it martial art.

[lkfmdc]

Heads can get hurt very badly if you don't wear padded mittens and your technique is correct.

Seriously, you need to get out more. Early MMA fights were no head gear and no gloves and people were hitting to injure. It's a lot harder to hurt someone that traditional martial arts would lead you be believe.....

Heads "can" get hurt, doesn't mean they will..... most full contact matches, regardless of whether they are Thai, San Da, boxing, kickboxing or MMA do not end in KO's....

I'm not going to get into a arguement about the legitimacy of "full contact" (which it isn't) or any of that business. I practice traditional martial arts and I'm not in favor of slapping on pads, reverting to sloppy boxing techniques and calling it martial art.

Statements like that make you seem very silly and uninformed. You don't think they are going full contact? You need to leave the cave and get some freash air. In Muay Thai, San Da, kickboxing, boxing and MMA believe me, people are hitting as hard as they can with the express idea of trying to do as much damage as possible

There are people doing full contact sports who have extremely skilled techniques, people who would WRECK YOU.... fine, you want to call yourself a "martial artist" and denegrate anyone doing full contact as "sloppy" but all you're really doing is showing how little you have been exposed to what is out there and how ininformed your comments are

[Shaolinlueb]

im not going to read this letter because

1. its between your sifu and the other guy

2. the guy is throwing his tournament and he can run it however the way he wants. i have been to all form tournaments because of insurance and risk factors.

[P. Starr]

Yep - saw the early MMA bouts. No technique. Saw one fellow get the other on the ground and hit him repeatedly in the back of the head with his elbow. No damage done. Huh. I'd say that's pretty sorry technique. I've had senior students accidentally crack each other in the back of the head with an elbow and cause unconsciousness. This guy couldn't do it with his opponent laying face down.

I say that if people really want to do FULL contact and find out what works and what doesn't, take off the protective gear.

To think that our martial arts ancestors (of which your own teacher is one) would utilize techniques that didn't really work is ludicrous...

If you keep missing the target it doesn't mean that you have a faulty rifle. You probably need to learn how to shoot.

Enough said. I've been in these MMA vs. traditional martial arts arguements before and they cannot be resolved. I do it my way, you do it yours and that's fine. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

Good luck with your martial arts training. Please extend my best wishes to Sifu Chan's students.

[lkfmdc]

So let me get this straight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51RnDMeFYsI

you don't think these guys are going at it full contact

Even is we call them sloppy (Vanderlei is a little sloppy), how do you think you'd do against either one? How about your students?

[Sidi]

Chris... Chris who the same Chris who came to our class and couldn't do 10 regular push-ups, Same Chris who gave up and left class early, Same Chris who didn't come back because our exercises alone were too physical. Same Chris? Respect your elders. your rank is what. DO MORE THEN 10 PUSH-UPS IN A ROW THEN TALK.

Wrong Chris dude! I watched one of Sifu Young's classes last Fall before I left my former Wing Chun school. Deal with the real issue at hand. I liked the people I met at the SPM school and let's not make a mountain out of a molehill.

[P. Starr]

I was unaware that one had to be able to do a given number of push-ups before one's opinion meant anything...! How times change...

[YiLiQuan1]

I was unaware that one had to be able to do a given number of push-ups before one's opinion meant anything...! How times change...

I should make doing no less than 20 snatches with my 53lb kettlebell a prerequisite to training...

Ten push ups... please!

[YiLiQuan1]

So let me get this straight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51RnDMeFYsI

you don't think these guys are going at it full contact

Nah... A couple of qi blasters if ever I saw them...

Even is we call them sloppy (Vanderlei is a little sloppy), how do you think you'd do against either one? How about your students?

My take on it is this -

We practice for perfect technique because in the "heat of battle" a combination of blood pressure and adrenaline are going to make all but the most deeply ingrained muscle movements sloppy, ill-timed, and grossly exaggerated. The closer to perfection we are in the training hall, the less craptacular our techniques will be in a "real" encounter. The sloppiness exhibited in the MMA fights I've watched (and I watch as many as I can) stems, I believe, from a lowered standard of performance. Do they still hit hard? You bet. Can they still knock you out? Sure. Not the point. The point is that that reduced standard eventually becomes the accepted standard, because non-professional fighters will cite such examples as sufficient for their use. If a reduced standard then becomes the goal, what then will the accepted standard become? It's a downward spiral...

Comparing amateur students against trained, conditioned, professional fighters is an unfair comparison to make. Could I take them? Sure! Okay, maybe I'd need a year in the gym 12 hours a day every day before I'd be ready, and maybe surgery on at least one knee and one shoulder would be a huge help, but maybe... That and qi blasts...

But this brings me to another theory of mine - none of this stuff was ever intended to be used against other, well-trained, fighters. The superiority of a martial artist's training stems from his comparison against untrained, unconditioned, non-fighters. A single swordsman taking out 6 or more poorly trained ruffians makes for a mythic battle. A single swordsman against 6 well-trained, experienced swordsmen is going to die a horrible, painful death. When I did multiple opponent drills in Army Combatives, it is made painfully obvious that multiple person engagements are a whole other animal when there are literally very few rules in place... When you pit two essentially equal fighters against each other, you're going to have a mess. Take a look at MMA fights where one fighter clearly outclasses the other... To steal a term, you get "total ownage."

So.

Is there a place for full contact MMA fights? You bet. They are the gladiatorial arena of our era in which the myths of what does and does not work are dispelled... to a degree. Are they constrained by limiting rules sets? Sure! Unless you want, and sanction, fights to the death (which will never happen... who's going to want to fight in those?), there will always have to be rules that limit fighters for their mutual safety. But even with those rules, techniques are tested at full speed, with full contact, and little "pulling" of punches to be seen anywhere. It's as real as it gets short of throwing some folks in the Arena along with Christians and lions...

Is there a place for less than full-contact fights? You bet. The reinforcement of standards, especially for those either not inclined toward or incapable of competing in full contact fights, is very valuable. The professionals comprise the very top layer of fighters. For every one "big name" how many wannabe amateurs are there who will never, ever have a "real" fight? Plenty. So having some sort of venue within which standards can still be tested to some level and reinforced still possesses value. It's not "real," but it's closer than nothing at all.

The trick, I think, is not mistaking one for the other, and not devaluing one in favor of another.

Musashi said "to know one weapon to the exclusion of all others is just as bad as not knowing one sufficiently well." In this instance, I take that to mean "look deeply into each single thing to determine its value relative to other things." When I practice shooting, I don't always have rounds loaded... Sometimes I just practice my aim, practice my hold, practice my breathing. Other times, I shoot, shoot, shoot, until all the targets are down, regardless of how much ammo I use. Both methods have their place.

Just my take on things. What do I know...?

[djcaldwell]

But this brings me to another theory of mine - none of this stuff was ever intended to be used against other, well-trained, fighters. The superiority of a martial artist's training stems from his comparison against untrained, unconditioned, non-fighters

I realize you did say that this was just your theory - but seriously?! This is just a ridiculous statement. Back in the day they trained for real because they fought on a regular basis - with other "fighters" for their lives. Be it to defend family, propriety or just to prove who's family's style was the best.

Systems changed and grew BECAUSE they fought other "fighters" and perhaps lost or saw something durring their fight that they felt they liked and so augmented their system to include or defend against it. Military doesn't train to fight civilians - they train to fight other military forces (and don't go and say the fight guerilla's who stem from civilian forces). On the same token - fighters don't train to fight untrained people - they train to fight other fighters. Otherwise you're not a fighter - you're just a bully.

[B-Rad]

I still don't understand what "freestyle one-step sparing" is or how it's more traditional than hard contact fighting (like San Da or MMA). I remember one steps from my brief stint in TKD, and can't really imagine how it translates to sparring. Maybe your "one step" means something else.

When you take away the contact, it sounds like the emphasis shifts more to appearance than reality. Never tried MMA, but the gloves don't look all that bulky to me. Known a couple MMA competitors too, and they never had any trouble at all hitting without gloves when they needed to.

Is there any video out there of this "freestyle one step sparring"?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Asking amateurs, but especially regular students, to fight no gear is stupid (oh, got to be nice, "silly" ok?)

Want to fight no gear and blood and guts? PAY US. That's the way pro's fight

Haha....very true.

As for style points---funny.

But hey, what if we flew in Mega-Tool for no gear and blood and guts. Would you fight for free then?

We know you would.

and we'd pay to watch.