How it goes

[t_niehoff]

As I see it, the Cheung-Boztepe fight was a good example of what a realistic fight will look like regardless of the "styles" of the combatants. A MMA/NHB fight, the "lunch break at school", the after-school fight, the bar fight, Cheung-Boztepe, etc. will all look pretty much the same for the simple reason that when people really go at it full-out, all the sytlistic, nonfunctional, artful, etc. crap goes out the window, and all anyone can really make work are the same basic functional elements (because our bodies can only do a limited number of things at 100&#37. That's why I think that the further a person gets away from this - in other words, the less your martial art "looks" like this - the less effective it will be.

On a related note, Matt Larson, the man considered to be the "father of Modern Army Combatives" (the system of hand-to-hand combat taught to the U.S. Rangers and special forces), reported that hundreds of soldiers that engaged in hand-to-hand combat in Afghanistan and Iraq were interviewed, and, according to Mr. Larson "every hand-to-hand fight we have documented has involved grappling, but not a single one has involved only striking." (quote from "Hand to Hand Combat" by Greg Thompson and Kid Peligro).

[Ultimatewingchun]

Given the fact that this really wasn't much of a fight - since William Cheung was surrounded by 6 of Boztepe's friends..and that the video was edited to hide the fact that Cheung actually front kicked Boztepe and pushed him back when Boztepe first charged....and that he slipped with his second kick on the next charge (the thin Chinese slippers on a polished parquet floor will do that to you)...

and given the fact that as a result of the slip Boztepe was able to get close enough to pull off a takedown...followed by about 10 seconds of a very ineffectual mount while throwing punches (none of which landed anywhere except William's arms and shoulders)...

and given the fact that after the 10 seconds or so William escaped back to his feet - and Boztepe, his cohorts, and the video camera were now on their way to the editing room...

YES... many real "fights" (this was not exactly one of them)...will look something like this.

One big difference, however, is that many real fights will see punches being thrown (and landed) from a standing position...and many fights will have punches and possibly knees being thrown from some sort of clinch (or grabbing) situation.

And most real fights won't be the result of having someone surrounded by 6 of your friends.

What you have to understand about that INCIDENT (which is a more accurate descriptive word for it, imo)...is that given the fact that he was a LONE CHINESE MAN in Germany for the first time - he didn't want to fight once he saw what had developed. The kicks were meant to keep this guy he'd never seen before AWAY from him - and possibly discourage him from continuing his attack.

And the headlock he put Boztepe in once Emin gained entry very close to him - was again meant to possibly be a neutralizer - and not actual fight engagement (ie.- throwing punches that were meant to do damage).

But the standing headlock neutralizer against someone taller than you (and someone who knew how to do a takedown from there) - is not very high percentage, to say the least, and it resulted in the "fight" going to the ground - and you know the rest.

I know all of this because William Cheung was in NYC exactly 10 days after the incident and told a number of his students like myself all about it.

And I believed him. And I still do.

And I also believe my own eyes when I watch the (edited) video. (Many times now. It holds to what William said about it).

And to Emin Boztepe's credit - he's since apologized for this whole affair.

[A Soave]

As I see it, the Cheung-Boztepe fight was a good example of what a realistic fight will look like regardless of the "styles" of the combatants. A MMA/NHB fight, the "lunch break at school", the after-school fight, the bar fight, Cheung-Boztepe, etc. will all look pretty much the same for the simple reason that when people really go at it full-out, all the sytlistic, nonfunctional, artful, etc. crap goes out the window, and all anyone can really make work are the same basic functional elements (because our bodies can only do a limited number of things at 100%). That's why I think that the further a person gets away from this - in other words, the less your martial art "looks" like this - the less effective it will be.

On a related note, Matt Larson, the man considered to be the "father of Modern Army Combatives" (the system of hand-to-hand combat taught to the U.S. Rangers and special forces), reported that hundreds of soldiers that engaged in hand-to-hand combat in Afghanistan and Iraq were interviewed, and, according to Mr. Larson "every hand-to-hand fight we have documented has involved grappling, but not a single one has involved only striking." (quote from "Hand to Hand Combat" by Greg Thompson and Kid Peligro).

This is highly informative, is it not? IT makes me think a little bit.


I was trying to make the point. however, that in response to the valid comments I received (some of them), the problem is that I composed most of that "synopsis" scenario - it was, in my opinion, exceedingly biased until I revised about 25 edits. The point I was trying to make is, isn't almost every behavior that one observes a POV?

For example, listen for one second to this scenario and see if you agree:
i5 of us watch a TV newscast, the exact same newscast, very intently, without distraction, and then we are subsequently queried as to the essence of what we watched. Would we have the same stories, or do you think we would provide accounts that differ? I believe, and I think there is social-psychological evidence to support it, that we may give different, sometimes radically different accounts based upon our perceptions that were influenced by biases and expectations.

I will be the first to admit that I am different than you, or anybody else. I likely am MORE biased because of my training with GM. And in reality, many others are similarly biased, in entirely different directions because of their experiences, expectations, etc. That being said, I have watched this short clip, and it is a highly inadequate portrayal of anything conclusive. It's dark, it's shot from one angle, it's edited, it's truncated, etc. etc. Essentially, I don't see much other th an somebody cinching somebody else, two people falling to the ground, and some strikes that are entirely unclear as to where they hit and how hard. I just know one thing, however.

I have been hit in the head before, and I have summarily concluded one thing- I REALLY don't like it at all. Therefore, I believe if I got struck multiple times with any appreciable impact, I would not participate much further in the day's activities. Hell, I might call of Christmas. This is the primary reason that when (and if ever) I fight, I fight dirty. I ain't gettin my head hurt, can't afford to lose ANY IQ points. And by the sound of many of my colleagues here, neither can they.

So tell me so I can understand it, how is it then, that GM continues on with a seminar, if this great, domination, a$$-whuppin' victory took place? And if you conclude much as I and others have, why would you dramatize it, hype it, put it on websites, make documentaries, etc. etc. ?

I appreciate your thinking and your time, because your response was essentially devoid of the hysteria that seems to permeate any discussions of sport, combat, etc. I also GREATLY appreciate the gentleman from AU (don't recall his name) , he had been around awhile and trained with Rick Spain, who provided rational comments.


A Soave

[YungChun]

As I see it, the Cheung-Boztepe fight was a good example of what a realistic fight will look like regardless of the "styles" of the combatants. A MMA/NHB fight, the "lunch break at school", the after-school fight, the bar fight, Cheung-Boztepe, etc. will all look pretty much the same for the simple reason that when people really go at it full-out, all the sytlistic, nonfunctional, artful, etc. crap goes out the window

Clearly Boztepe took Cheung down and held him there for a reason--that is a tactical choice. Making the case that this wasn’t a clear tactical choice is arbitrary and specious, IMO. If I wanted to fight someone and test my WCK against theirs I would not attempt to *shoot* and get a takedown, let alone keep him there restrained..

With this kind of reasoning we are asked to agree that WCK in a real situation breaks down into haphazard floor restraint..

In the case of Cheung and Boztepe a WCK challenge could have been done but instead Boztepe was operating with a different set of objectives in mind..and he pretty much got what he wanted--more safely without risking his future earnings potential and perhaps even bolstering it..

[t_niehoff]

YES... many real "fights" (this was not exactly one of them)...will look something like this.

One big difference, however, is that many real fights will see punches being thrown (and landed) from a standing position...and many fights will have punches and possibly knees being thrown from sort of clinch (or grabbing) situation.

And most real fights won't be the result of having someone surrounded by 6 of your friends.

Yes, stand-up striking can be involved in realistic fighting -- no argument there. But they will almost invariably lead, as Mr. Larson points out, to grappling (clinch and ground). This is why most realistic fights will end up looking like Cheung-Boztepe.

[t_niehoff]

Can we all stop talking about what exactly happened in that fight -- and instead focus on the lessons we can draw from it? And how those can and should be incorporated into our training.

[CFT]

And most real fights won't be the result of having someone surrounded by 6 of your friends.

No? Sounds like the kind of odds any aggressor would prefer.

[Nick Forrer]

Can we all stop talking about what exactly happened in that fight -- and instead focus on the lessons we can draw from it? And how those can and should be incorporated into our training.

Good luck with that

Most people like to stay in la la land dreaming of the grandmaster whose tears can cure cancer (shame then that he never cries).

[Wayfaring]

A MMA/NHB fight, the "lunch break at school", the after-school fight, the bar fight, Cheung-Boztepe, etc. will all look pretty much the same for the simple reason that when people really go at it full-out, all the sytlistic, nonfunctional, artful, etc. crap goes out the window, and all anyone can really make work are the same basic functional elements (because our bodies can only do a limited number of things at 100%).

Do you mean like this "lunch break at school" fight? Adryan steals Kevin's lunch money, and messes up his hairnet. Kevin doesn't like it. They step out back and have a disagreement. Kevin leaves happy after his homeys collect the money and rights to the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vkdIcQsYow

[t_niehoff]

Clearly Boztepe took Cheung down and held him there for a reason--that is a tactical choice. Making the case that this wasn’t a clear tactical choice is arbitrary and specious, IMO. If I wanted to fight someone and test my WCK against theirs I would not attempt to *shoot* and get a takedown, let alone keep him there restrained..

Boztepe didn't do a shoot. He ran in, clinched, and they grappled until they went to the floor.

I remember the famous (infamous?) incident when Larry Holmes, the then heavyweight boxing champion, got into a "streetfight" against his soon-to-be opponent, and how he came running over a car, jumped on the guy, took him down, and began pummeling him. Sound familiar? Is this how boxers "test their boxing"? No. It is how people really fight.

With this kind of reasoning we are asked to agree that WCK in a real situation breaks down into haphazard floor restraint..

No, it is just when people fight realistically, they invariably end up grappling and from there, often hit the floor.

In the case of Cheung and Boztepe a WCK challenge could have been done but instead Boztepe was operating with a different set of objectives in mind..and he pretty much got what he wanted--more safely without risking his future earnings potential and perhaps even bolstering it..

Yes, Boztepe wnated to embarass Cheung and he succeeded. However, my point is that regardless of how the fight began, regardless of who won, regardless of everything else, that when two people, kids on a playground or top level fighters, fight realistically, it will end up pretty much looking the same -- because that is the nature of fighting.

[Ultimatewingchun]

You guys should go back and reread my first post on this thread - as I've added greatly to it (before even realizing that there were so many followup posts).

[YungChun]

Do you mean like this "lunch break at school" fight?

Apparently they didn’t get the memo on how to fight "for real" correctly...

This shows that what happens in a "duel" type fight is based on how fighters train, and how they think they are supposed to fight. .

When you have two folks that have similar "fight thinking" their fighting will reflect that, not what someone else's "fight thinking" is...

The trick is when two are different and have different "fight thinking" then often the better fighter's methods will dominate, venue permitting..

[Ultimatewingchun]

First of all - the details of the exact incident are important to understanding exactly what happened in this "fight" and why.

Again: One man wants to charge and fight and the other, for several reasons (shoes/floor, being surrounded, a lone Chinese in a caucasion country for the first time - and not exactly the most openminded of countries to foreigners of a different race)...

So clearly all of this influenced his "fight" choices push away/keep him at bay kicks, headlocks instead of punches, etc.)

Sorry, but there's just no getting around that.

[t_niehoff]

Apparently they didn’t get the memo on how to fight "for real" correctly...

This shows that what happens in a "duel" type fight is based on how fighters train, and how they think they are supposed to fight. .

When you have two folks that have similar "fight thinking" their fighting will reflect that, not what someone else's "fight thinking" is...

The trick is when two are different and have different "fight thinking" then often the better fighter's methods will dominate, venue permitting..

There is something in what you are saying -- often people get "trapped" into playing their game, and if both play the same sort of game, like let's stand here and bang away as in that clip, that's what you get. Or, you get crap like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ixi2GLcd9s

where the two "fighters" are constipated by their training/theory.

However, in most realistic fights you get people ending up in a clinch. And if you have good stand up, good clinch, and good ground:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx9WP...elated&search=

same Kimbo, different opponent.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

It never fails to amaze me how people want to dwell on the past.

First of all this "fight" proved nothing for either side. The only thing it accomplished was to make everyone involved, entire lineages not just the individuals, look foolish. It did not rectify any views on who was the "best Wing Chun" person. Each side has made, and most likely will continue to make, claims showing how they "prevailed". Everyone will continue to make excuses for why their side may have looked bad. In the end nothing is accomplished and this is better left in the past. It is highly doubtful that anyone will have their minds changed by anything posted here and this thread and those like it, really serve little purpose other than to keep trouble brewing.

This whole matter kind of reminds me of my 6 year old daughter when she has a cut and it has scabbed over. While it is better to leave the scab alone to heal, some doubtless will pick at it even though it does little more than keep the wound from healing quicker. Still, no matter how ofter I tell my daughter to leave it alone she will still pick at it, go figure.