How many systems are there in Jun Fan?...

[RAYNYSC]

Just a question I would like to get feed back on.As I have been told by some that there is three and others say ten.I myself believe that there about twenty six systems that make up the art of Jun Fan. What do you guys think?

PEACE...

RAYNYSC

[Black Jack]

I believe there are currently around 32 systems that have contributed to the JKD Concepts matrix in some fashion or another according to what I have read and from what my instructor has told me.

Some arts have contributed more than others in certain schools. Western Boxing, Thai Boxing, Savate, Wing Chun, Kali and Ju Jitsu are some of the more common names you will hear passed around though there are many others.

Each teacher or school has there own take on there JKD Concepts approach...I am in reference in this post to JKD Concepts and not Pre-1973 JKD/Jun Fan Gung Fu...for instance Paul Vunack schools have a heavy influence in the filipino arts and this can be seen by his incorporation of such hard to find filipino systems as Panajackman (FMA system of low-line kicking),Dumog (native FMA JuJitsu) and Keeni Mutai (FMA art of biting, eye gouging, hairpulling and pinching when grappling).

Other JKD teachers such as Richard Burton have a heavy filipino/silat approach as well and guys like Larrry Harstell are more focused on the grappling arts though all JKD fighters both JKD and JKD Concepts work all of the ranges of combat training.

It is all about what suits you the best and what tools fit into the guiding principles of JKD that matter the most.

Just because a school has a few tools from Savate in its curriclum like a Chasse bas does not mean that the student is learning Savate by any means.

Good schools bring in specialist instuctors or open specific classes for some of the core arts in JKD so the student can internalize and experiance one of those systems and see what fits them the best.

As an example I will show you what fits into my personal approach within the JKD Concepts structure as of this time.

Almost all of my hand striking tools are from Western boxing with elements of Mano-Mano, Wing Chun, Savate and Thai Boxing mixed in as well.

For my kicking tools its Thai Boxing, Savate and Panajackman.

For my infighting tools its Thai Boxing, Mano-Mano, Wing Chun, Dumog, Keeni Mutai, Panajackman and Western Boxing.

For my throwing and grappling tools its most of the basic JKD Concepts tools with a bend toward Dumog and Judo at this time

For my groundfighting range its Freestyle Wrestling, Ju-Jitsu, Shootfighting and Keeni Mutai.

For my weapons training its Kali though I would love to get into some Silat.

For mass attack training its mostly Western Boxing.

From a whole arts perspective I train in additional Largo Mano and other Archiepligo FMA combatives systems in a different school to internalize the heavy influence the FMA arts have in my school and because I think that the FMA arts are very hardcore and some of the best for weapon work out there.

We also have a once a week Savate class at my school from a Savate fighter who has spent a good number of years in France and Italy and realy works on the old style Parisien streetfighting savate and not Boxe Francaise.

Opps I didn't realize I was blabbing that much so I hope I helped answer your question.

Its not realy how many arts that are in "your" system its how you apply those arts & there tools to the concepts and principles of JKD and in turn how they work for you so you can create your own fighting style that is unquie and is natural.

Regards

[RAYNYSC]

Black Jack:
Thanks for the reply, I'm a JKD Concepts guy myself. I just want to hear what the Jun Fan side of the story is?...(It's like they say there are two side's to every story,Just like theres more than one way of seeing & or doing things.)

I have nothing against anyone who studies Jun Fan. I may disagree with some on the way they see things or believe them to be.(But thats another story on to it's self.)Hell I may even disagree with someone who may see it the way I do at one point or another & thats cool & I can deal with that.
You see thats what makes JKD so special it's an art on to one's self JKD is about what works for the individual Regardless of where the system comes from...
Look JKD can be found in all most every art known to man! (Meaning the individual)Now thats a fact that a lot of people don't realize...(If you have no idea about what another systems has to offer you what makes you think it doesn't work) I don't get it...

The art of JKD is about what you can do with what you have Plain & simple there are no two ways around it you either have or you don't...
& if you don't you have to at least do some type of research on what you may come up against in a fight... The reason I'm saying this is because I agree with you. In saying that just because a school has some Savate in its curriclum doesn't mean that the student is learning Savate does it?... Think about it maybe French Savate,Pentjak Silat Serak,Mande Muda Pencak Silat,as well as Malaysian Bersilat Filipino Kali,Eskrima Silat & Muay Thai Thai Boxing have things that they can offer the individual. It doesn't always mean that your just looking at the way these systems fight but you should be also looking at the training methods that these systems follow...
That can make the individual a much more affective fighter...

In short JKD is about making the system a part of you & not you a part of it...

PEACE

RAYNYSC

[Black Jack]

My thoughts exactly.

JKD is about concepts instead of sole techniques and it also places a very high stress on key attribute development for those attributes related to fighting.

Kind of like that old statement: "What good is having a gun if you dont have any bullets".

A lot of core martial arts at one time were JKD formated as they came from one mans vision on what worked best for themselves and thereby begged, borrowed and innovated on already learned techniques, concepts and principles intell they had there own form of self expression in self defense.

As I like to say its not about the style you practice its about how you train that realy matters.

I like my tools to be as simple and as natural feeling as possible for practical self defense.

Thats does not mean that a tool needs to be in the kindergarten level but it does have to be reasonable enough to learn and incorporate into my existing structure so I can either test it in sparring or if need be use it on the street.

A tool may seem complicated at first but if I can get it down enough to where it is field stripped so I can apply it within a number of different enviroments and situations with a good success ratio then I know that I have been making some good progress but for me it still comes down to analyzing the sweet secrets that are contained within a persons basics.

Regards

[RAYNYSC]

You hit the nail right on the head if I do say so myself Black Jack... Thanks again for taking the time to reply...

Peace

RAYNYSC

[DragonzRage]

The 26 arts that helped synthesize Bruce Lee's Jun Fan Gung fu (in no particular order) were:

wing chun, northern and southern mantis, choy li fut, tai chi, paqua, hsing I, bak hoo pai, bak fu pai, eagle claw, ng ga kuen, ny ying ga, bak mei, northern shaolin, southern shaolin, bok pai, law horn kuen, chin na, monkey, drunken fist, western boxing, fencing, wrestling, jiujitsu, escrima, filipino sikaran and muay thai.

There is only one martial art.

[This message was edited by DragonzRage on 12-14-00 at 12:15 PM.]

[Sean Madigan]

Hi,

Well, according to Bruce Lee, it was only three....

Wing Chun
Boxing
Fencing

For kicking he wrote: "Just move your legs as you would your arms."

BIG Sean Madigan

www.bigkd.com

[loki]

Did Bruce tell you that himself? :rolleyes:

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[Kung Lek]

Hi-

What Sean is saying is drawn from the direct writings of Bruce Lee and his wife Linda (as his assistant in writing the Tao of JKD).

Bruce studied Wing Chun, Boxing (sort of in an open way) and fencing. He was not really exposed enough to any of the other arts mentioned to be able to grasp them deeply enough to incorporate them into Jun Fan Kung Fu.

Jun Fan Kung Fu as I understand is NOT JKD. It is indeed a system founded by Bruce Lee based upon his formal and informal training in codified and systemitized Martial Arts.

JKD to the best of my knowledge was Bruces way of telling everyone that the specific art they had was not of as much importance as understanding and embracing the art in a very real way.

To practice as you would fight in reality is one of the concepts.

The commonality of the scientific approach to body mechanics and what role that played in every martial art.

The commonality of the physics involved in a variety of techniques that point to what is economical and workable when done correctly.

These concepts carry across a variety of arts as the are truths that cannot be disproven IE: If I bend your elbow back past x degrees at this angle it will break EVERY time. This sort of thing is as true in Wing Chun as it is in Hung Gar , Choy Li Fut, Black Tiger, North Shaolin and the rest of the CMA and any other martial art out there that is martially applicabel and not just empty dance (the classical mess[ha ha]).

So there are 3 sides to every story, my side, your side and the Truth. ha ha.

peace

Kung Lek

[RAYNYSC]

Ok so your saying that BL wasn't really exposed enough to any of the other arts mentioned to be able to grasp them deeply enough to incorporate them into JUN FAN kung fu...WHAT? :confused:

It's a known fact that BL exchanged & or Traded what he knew from Wing Chun for other Systems...
Hell it's even a known fact that if he(Bruce Lee)could not learn from the number one guy.(meaning the Sifu of a particular System)He would go up to the number one student or disciple & ask if they wanted to learn Wing Chun? & all they had to do was trade off what they knew about there system...

Now Taky Kimura one of only three instructors that BL ever made the other two James Lee who is no longer with us & Dan Inosanto... Said in a interview when asked did Bruce integrate other arts at that time,(Now grant you Taky met Bruce Lee in 1959)or was it strictly Wing Chung?
Taky's answer Bruce was familiar with many styles such as Hung Gar,Choy Li Fut,Praying Mantis,& others,but he identified with Wing Chun as being to his liking & he taught us a Rather Modified Version...

So as far as JUN FAN only having three system's in it doesn't make sense... Just think about what you said something to the affect of what Sean was saying is drawn from the direct writings of Bruce Lee & his wife Linda (as his assistantin writing the TAO of JKD)...
Did I miss something here or what?...
As far as I can tell there was more then Wing Chun,Boxing & Fencing in the TAO of JKD.
There was also drawing's & or notes on Thai Boxing,Savate,Judo,Ju-Jitsu & Grappling...


PEACE

RAYNYSC

[harley]

Hello Ray,
Merry Christmas,
I think your on to something there Ray, i have seen the list of 26 arts but distictly remember Sifu Inosanto saying that that list was incorrect. i know some JKD people use it but i don't. perhaps you can ask Sifu Inosanto yourself next time your down.
harley :p

[RAYNYSC]

Hello Sifu harley, Merry Christmas.
Thanks for the info on the art's of JUN FAN & I apologize so with that being said. I'll take your word for it as you & Guro Inosanto go back some time...
Once again thanks for everything...

PEACE

RAYNYSC

[Kung Lek]

Hi Guys-

Ray, the reason I said what I said was out of personal experience and material that Bruce Lee himself wrote.

I too, have been exposed to arts such as praying mantis, Hung Gar, Wing Chun and others.
I cannot grasp them so deeply as to "incorporate" them into the art I do study.
Therefore, I think that what I said is correct.

A couple of techniques and their applications does NOT give you a lot of knowledge of a "system"

Granted and it is likely that Bruce played with a great many stylists from a great many systems, but Bruce cannot lay claim to "knowing" those systems. And I don't think he did claim that.

Anyway, once again, Props to the little Dragon! he made some HUGE contributions to the study of genuine chinese martial arts in the americas.

peace

Kung Lek

[Sean Madigan]

Hi Ray,

Just because Bruce Lee was "exposed" to other martial arts, doesn't mean that these arts are incorporated within the system of Jun Fan. Sure, Bruce Lee looked at other arts, that is true, he even made notes about some of them, however, if you look at what 'he' himself trained in, and taught, you will see NO mention of any of these arts. That is simply the truth.

There is no getting around what the man said, and he said: "I am having a system of martial arts drawn up, it is compromprised mostly of Wing Chun, Western Boxing, and Fencing."

If you look at the curriculums from the Seattle school, the Oakland school and the LA Chinatown schools, you will see NO mention of anyother art. Also, look at his personal training diaries, basically all they consist of is simple straight punches and kicking....not much else. I am sorry to say, but there was no "Thai Class" in the LA Chinatown school. ;)

With all of the information available today, it is kind of easy to see what Bruce Lee was talking about back then.

Anyway, have a good holiday.

All the best,

BIG Sean Madigan

www.bigkd.com

Hi Sean,

Please don't be offended by the following response. It is critical but I hope fair. I thought about emailing privately but I think other people need this information.

You claim Jun Fan is comprised of only 3 elements and that claims to the contrary are false. You imply that with Sijo Lee's notes we can now, finally, get the real answers. Is it your position that his notes are more reliable than clear statements given by leading 1st generation instructors? It seems so. Here are my reasons for disagreeing strongly with you.

POINT 1: Your primary quote is old in a JKD development sense. The quote you reference was from a letter written to James Lee on August 1, 1965. (See Letters of the Dragon: Correspondence, 1958-1973, page 59-61 or Jeet Kune Do: Bruce Lee's Commentaries on the Martial Way, page 47) Do you think that maybe, just maybe, some other influences may have made it into the mix in the following 7-8 YEARS.

POINT 2: The quote actually SUPPORTS the position that MORE than 3 elements contribute to Jun Fan. It is UNDENIABLE that the primary influences in Jun Fan are Wing Chun, Western Boxing, and Fencing. But the letter reads, "...is a combination of chiefly Wing Chun, fencing and boxing." 'Chiefly' implies, at least in English, that the MAJORITY is comprised of those elements and the rest is drawn from OTHER sources/systems. But I guess you are right. "There is no getting around what the man said."

POINT 3: "...if you look... you will see NO mention of any of these arts. That is simply the truth." Pretty strong statement. Look again. A CURSORY glance at the Tao of Jeet Kune Do reveals under "Some Weapons From JKD" both Judo and Wrestling. (Tao of Jeet Kune Do, page 75) 3 + 2 = 5. Citing Sijo Bruce is fun!

POINT 4: Just because Sijo Lee used Chinese or English terminology does not make it a Chinese or English technique a priori. After all, a rose by any other name is still a rose. Here is just one example. I have personally heard Sihing Inosanto describe agonizing hours watching Savate films in detail, over and over again, with Sijo Lee. I have also heard Sihing Inosanto clearly state that Savate is one of the arts directly contributing to Jun Fan. If Sijing Inosanto says Savate contributed to Jun Fan and you say 'bull****' then you are either saying he is mistaken or lying. Just because Sijo Lee doesn't call a hook kick 'foute' does not mean Savate is not an influence on the curriculum and/or a major contributor to the manner in which kicking is used in Jun Fan. 3 + 2 + 1 = 6

There are many kicks in Jun Fan that are not at all like Wing Chun. There is no kicking in western boxing and fencing so where did they come from then? We know Sijo Lee had considerable exposure to many other arts. But I guess this is just a coincidence because his notes say, "Just move your legs as you would your arms."

It is not as simple as saying Jun Fan is a hodge-podge of boxing, fencing and wing chun. In Jun Fan you can't say the punching is boxing, the footwork is fencing, the trapping is Wing Chun, the rear hook kick is Thai Boxing, the oblique kick is Savate, etc... All these statements would be wrong to some extent. They are BRUCE LEE'S JEET KUNE DO. He researched various methods and worked out his own way of putting it together that worked for him.

POINT 5: You argue that examining the curriculums of the three schools somehow supports your claim that, "..., according to Bruce Lee, it was only three...." I 'looked' at the curriculums you have listed on your website and see no mention of western boxing or fencing either. (http://www.junfanjkd.com/curriculums.htm) This must mean that ONLY Wing Chun contributed because it was the only art mentioned by name in the curriculum? Kind of poor logic isn't it?

POINT 6: The notes we are so lucky to see in print should not be dogma. What he taught and said directly is equally if not more important. Sijing Inosanto tells us that Jun Fan was influenced by 26 arts. Is he not trustworthy? Clearly your position then is that he is either mistaken or lying? You also publically stated on a forum that Sijo Bruce Lee NEVER 'said' 'Absorb what is useful...' because you could not find it in any of his public writings. I also hear people saying that Sijo Lee only taught 3 ranges in contradiction to Sijing Inosanto again. Why isn't 'because Sijing Inosanto said so' enough for some people?

POINT 7: Show some respect. Nobody is perfect or infallible or above questioning. (shh..., don't tell anybody but it's possible that even Sijo Bruce Lee may have gotten a few things wrong ;) ) What Sihing Inosanto has said should not be dogma either. Sihing Inosanto has earned the right to be considered a leading authority on Jeet Kune Do and not be second guessed by someone who was likely not even alive when he was learning DIRECTLY from Sijo Lee.

I can understand and respect the differences of opinion about what the core of JKD is and the direction Sijing Inosanto has taken it. It least there is some valid reason for disagreement there. But this garbage with 2nd and 3rd Generation instructors saying Sijo Bruce never said or taught this or that in DIRECT contradiction to what Sihing Inosanto has told us is just ENORMOUSLY DISRESPECTFUL.

POINT 8: Why should we believe anything Dan Inosanto teaches if Sijo Lee's notes or other students contradict Dan? Well try this quote from Linda Lee for starters: "At the time of Bruce's death, Dan Inosanto was the one man who had spent the longest and most recent period of time with my husband in the development and refinement of the art of Jeet Kune Do. With Bruce's passing, Dan became the senior spokesman and authority not only on the physical expression of the art but also on the underlying philosophy..."(Linda Lee Letter)

Or how about because Sijing Inosanto had over 2,000 PRIVATE lessons with Sijo Bruce Lee and taught 90 - 95% of classes at the Chinatown school.(An Exclusive FreeVoice Interview With Sifu Dan Inosanto, page 23)

Doesn't that make him qualified to be an authority on what was and wasn't part of the curriculum of Jun Fan? Why, when Sijing Inosanto is on record do other 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation students feel qualified to contradict him?

POINT 9: Finally, just to be perfectly clear about what Sihing Inosanto teaches regarding the 26 sources in Jun Fan?

Here is a quote from an interview with Sihing Inosanto: "BLACK BELT: A lot has been said about the origin of jeet kune do. A student of yours, Paul Vunak, stated that it can be traced to 26 different elements. Is this true? DAN INOSANTO: Well it's true in the sense that there were 26 different components to Bruce Lee's research. Bruce, however, didn't borrow equally from all 26 styles. This illustration is comparable to doing a research paper and using 26 books for your report. You might take 10 percent from one book, 15 percent from another, and ignore another book completely. But you would still cite all 26 in your bibliography." (My Friend Bruce Lee: A Revealing Chat With Jeet Kune Do Expert Dan Inosanto, Black Belt Magazine, page 29-30)

CONCLUSION

The tone of your posts was arrogant. You took some lighthearted jabs at the 'Concepts' group again and directly contradicted Sihing Inosanto in an open forum. I know you didn't intend to make a personal attack on Sifu Inosanto but that is what it is when you openly state something he says is untrue. It's a free country and NOBODY has a monopoly on knowledge, but you seem to be part of a group of JKD instructors who have been taught to ignore or scrutinize what Sihing Inosanto has said and written. I truly don't understand this attitude.

Sean, you have somehow become an 'expert' on JKD to the public due to your efforts on the internet. Being a teacher is an honor and responsibility. You should do a little more research before answering questions and making authoritative statements on what is and isn't Jun Fan or JKD. You are playing politics by ignoring what Sijing Inosanto has taught.

You see, with all the information available today it is kind of easy to find out what Bruce Lee was talking about back then... just ask his assistant instructor who was actually there.

In respect,

Andy