How many systems are there in Jun Fan?...

[Sean Madigan]

Hi Andy,

I am not offended by your post at all, sorry you were so offended at mine. It is clear that we are going to disagree on some things, and that's fine with me.

From your post it is clear that you feel that I took some sort of 'shot' at Dan Inosanto. That was not my intention at all.

I really feel that at this point it is best to let this thread die. It can only go down hill from here.

All the best,

BIG Sean Madigan

www.bigkd.com

[RAYNYSC]

Great post there Delurker I glad to see that I'm not the only one who feels that Sean has been taking pop shots at (The JKD Concepts side not to mention Guro Inosanto)from time to time...
I must say I agree with the points you brought up.
As I feel that your points went into more detail on some of the parts I tried to get across...

By the way thanks for taking the time to reply to this topic... Maybe we can talk some time via e-mail let me know if you have the time...

As for you Sean,
What's up? Now you have nothing to say,except for I really feel at this point it is best to let this thread die... ha ha your funny...

Well anyhow I would like to end this by wishing everyone a Happy New Year!

PEACE

RAYNYSC :D

[This message was edited by RAYNYSC on 12-26-00 at 11:59 PM.]

[This message was edited by RAYNYSC on 12-27-00 at 12:09 AM.]

[loki]

Sean,

I hate to say it ( then again, no I do not ), but you had it coming. :rolleyes: :D


Peace

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[Kung Lek]

Hi-

Yes it would be nice to have all the knowledge of 26 seperate systems of cma all wrapped up ina neat and tidy package and put out as a new art.

but to take a technique here and there and to add high kicks which Bruce Lee had a natural propensity for does not mean that you can "Tack" on all these different styles and say they are in jkd. That is simply not true.

yes , elements of other arts exist in the body of what is taught, but they are small in comparison to the arts which bruce lee had a fuller comprehension of those being wing chun, boxing and fencing.

The addition of Fillipine martial arts came through Dan Inosanto and he has brought a lot more into the practice of jkd since bruce Lees death.

To make such a statement would equate to the JKD practitioners being the "New Chin Wu" society.
Except for the fact that the chin wu society had different masters with complete arts teaching those arts in a seperate fashion from all the other arts offered by the society.

Many masters over the years have incorporated other techniques from other masters into the systems they have learned and they did not take away from those systems but merely added to their own.

Hung Gar is Hung Gar, Wing Chun is Wing Chun, Shaolin is Shaolin and so on. JKD cannot make the statement that it has all of these arts encompassed in its offerings, It does not.

peace

Kung Lek

[Sean Madigan]

Hi All,

I’ve been reviewing this thread, and although I still feel that I have the right to disagree with anybody when it comes to Jeet Kune Do, I could have ‘disagreed’ in a more professional manner.

So, I apologize for the way I handled myself, but I do not apologize for having my own opinion.

If I goof up, I'll own up to it.

All the best,

Sean Madigan

www.bigkd.com

[DragonzRage]

First off, I think that I can say with a good amount of certainty that the mention of Bruce making research into those 26 different arts is in no way meant to imply that he had a thorough understanding of all those arts and was able to embody their structures altogether in Jun Fan. I think what is actually meant is that he found small aspects or ideas that made sense to him through his research of many of those styles. It is definitely not as if he got so and so technique from pakua, this deadly kick from northern mantis, that secret punch from hsing-I, etc. In actual structure and technique, it is obvious to me that Jun Fan comprises of boxing, wing chun, fencing and an altered form of the basic kicking techniques that are universal to many styles of Gung fu, karate and TKD (you can't exactly patent a hook kick or a sidekick to any one style). From a technical standpoint, these are the aspects of Jun Fan, as far as I've seen. The 26 styles list that I posted earlier was probably simply meant as a reference to all the research Bruce made throughout his growth as a martial artist in his attempts to seek out the universal truths of combat. It was NEVER Bruce's intention (nor do any JKDC affiliates claim it to be) to have "26 seperate systems of cma all wrapped up in a neat and tidy package and put out as a new art". In all likelihood, he could probably care less about making the "ultimate Gung fu style" especially considering the fact that his opinion on most of those classical styles (or the way they were being taught) was not too high, to say the least. It was his intention to simply bring his Gung fu skills back to the roots of Gung fu, which is nothing more than the simple, direct, natural and efficient application of fighting technique. To say that he was attempting to create a technically cunning terror of an art through all this added complicated and ornamented mess with a thousand different secret James Bond tricks from a thousand different gung fu styles is to extremely pervert the intentions of his creation. It has been said time and time again, JKD is NOT simply an eclectic style of martial arts.

BTW...

"To make such a statement would equate to the JKD practitioners being the "New Chin Wu" society.
Except for the fact that the chin wu society had different masters with complete arts teaching those arts in a seperate fashion from all the other arts offered by the society."

I train at Guro Inosanto's academy in L.A. I just thought that you might like to know that the different martial arts influences over here are all taught within their own complete and separate programs. Jun Fan Gung fu is taught in its own class just as their are fully qualified Muay Thai instructors that teach thai boxing by itself in its own class, just as Shoot Wrestling is taught by a very qualified instructor in its own program, just as a Machado black belt conducts his Machado JJ program by itself. If you want only to study Filipino martial arts by itself, that option is available to you. If you want only to study Bjj, that option is also available to you. If you want to crosstrain in different arts, that option is also available to you. Classes at the academy are definitely not taught as a disorganized hodge podge mishmash of random techniques from a bunch of different systems, which is what you seem to assume JKD training is. If you get to read this, I'm glad that you now know better. Perhaps the next time I see Guro Inosanto I'll suggest to him that he change the name of his school to "New Ching Wu Academy of Martial arts" LOL!

There is only one martial art.

[rogue]

So you're saying that Inosanto, the defacto kahuna of JKD, doesn't teach it the way two out of three JKD schools I went to teach it? Which was the hodge podge method. Dan is still the man. I love all the guys who jump on the "Danwagon" and sample the arts that he's working on mastering. They still don't get that's the difference between Inosanto and themselves.

[loki]

Rogue,

I couldn't agree with you more . ;)

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[RAYNYSC]

Without question Dan's the man!
To tell you the truth as far as I see it...
Guro Inosanto has kept it real (Meaning The Concept of JKD)to the point of taking it to the next level... & I'm not just talking about the name of JKD as it's just a name. Like Bruce Lee said on the last page of theTAO OF JEET KUNE DO<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> [/quote]If people say JEET KUNE DO is different from "this," then let the name of JEET KUNE DO be wiped out,for that is what it is, just a name Please don't fuss over it.

Tell's me that what Guro Dan Inosanto has been & still to this day doing is keeping the art of JEET KUNE DO ALIVE by finding what works for him, & not what works for you or me...
JEET KUNE DO is about you the individual any way you look at it,as my way may not be your way... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> [/quote]The art of JEET KUNE DO is simply to simplify.It is being oneself;it is reality in its "isness." Thus,isness is the meaning-having freedom in its primary sense,not limited by attachments,partialization,complexities...
That's why I feel that he's taken it to the next level by teaching by example nothing more in short
Dan is the man...

PEACE

RAYNYSC

[loki]

Thaaat's right!!! Not Sean Madigan. :D :rolleyes: ;)

NO ROAD IS AS LONG OR FILLED WITH AS MANY OBSTACLES AS THE ONE TRAVELLED BY THE CHINESE BOXER. FEW ATTEMPT TO TAKE IT . THOSE THAT REACH IT'S END ARE EVEN FEWER.

[rogue]

1. Bruce Lee is dead.

2. Bruce Lee was still developing his ideas until the time of his death.

3. Nobody knows where Bruce Lee would have ended up with his ideas, not Dan, not Linda, nobody. He might have done a total about face and went traditional, he may have dropped MA all together and become a movie director or he may now be running a chain of succesful MacDojo/Aerobic studios and selling videos on Homeshopping channel.

JKD is worth discussing but it's certainly not worth fighting over.

[mcnasty]

what matters is what helps you acheive your full potential. these sort of discussions are what i believe bruce wanted to avoid that is why he did not want to give jkd a name because then it became something that people would try to quantify and break down. i've never studied with a jkd instructor but i've read bruce's work and have been influenced by it. my background was boxing then wing chun then muay thai now i study taiji quan. But i havn't dismissed the other training i've had now that i do taiji i bring all that i've learnt together and allow myself the freedom to experiment and play with techniques when training. the last sentence in the toa of jeet kune do goes like this - If people say jeet kune do is different from "this" or from "that" then let the name of jeet kune do be wiped out, for that is what it is, just a name. Please don't fuss over it.
R.I.P bruce

[Erasmus Lightstone]

If JKD is not a STYLE as Bruce said..but rather an evolvement of personal expression and liberation that is a constant PROCESS..then isn't it really impossible to say that "JKD consists of-------,------, and ------,etc." since as a concept it can really use ANY "system" to achieve it's end?

[DragonzRage]

I agree with your standpoint on JKD, but the original question was on Jun Fan Gung fu, not Jeet Kune Do.

[RAYNYSC]

Good Point there Rage but the problem here is the fact that many people acknowledge Jun Fan as Jeet Kune Do. & by doing so at time's may become confused as to what Jeet Kune Do is?
Ultimately many people don't realize that the individual is the most important part of Jeet Kune Do. After all Jeet Kune Do is nothing more than a name...

PEACE
RAYNYSC