The CMA Ground Challenge!

[PangQuan]

there is no ground grappling in cma.

there is ground fighting and stand up clinching.

end of debate.

what about people who swear they use chin na on the ground for submission type grappling?

[Yum Cha]

I was told a story by a prizefighter from 70's china I've known for many years.

He was in the grip of a mongolian wrestler, and escaped using the Tyson defense, he bit his ear off. The wrestler submitted, but claimed victory because he was wrestling and the Kung fu guy wasn't kung-fu-ing.

Well, out came the guns, and the 3 wise men had to decide how the pot was to be awarded. The kung fu fighter won because he argued that everything is Kung Fu, and they agreed.

[SevenStar]

there is no ground grappling in cma.

there is ground fighting and stand up clinching.

end of debate.

according to the thread, if you believe that, then either you haven't trained cma long enough or your teacher never learned it. are you sure you trained in authentic kung fu?

[Yum Cha]

That other thread on the shaolin forum really is a mess.

[Oso]

according to the thread, if you believe that, then either you haven't trained cma long enough or your teacher never learned it. are you sure you trained in authentic kung fu?

I guess 25 years of CMA isn't enough, eh?

my bad, here I go thinking I know something again.




I don't believe it. I feel I pretty much know it. And since no one is coughing up any evidence I can use a negative proof to substantiate my claim.

[mantis108]

Well, I am not interested in the rewards;however, I would like to share something that I share on other boards relating to this topic just the same.

------------
Kaveh Tahani used to training CCK TCPM/Mantis Kung Fu for about a year or so with me when he was living in Yellowknife, NWT, Canada. He is currently a student at Franco Kickboxing / Pankration in Vancouver, B.C., Canada and has been there for 5 months. Under the guidance of Mr. Franco, he entered in the middle weight Full Contact Pankration division at the 28th Can-Am tournament held at the BCIT on June 2, 2007. This is his first ever baptize by fire Pankration style so to speak despite a relatively short training period in Pankration competition format.

Rules:

No Knees to the head
No Elbows
No Punches with the person in on the ground....only open hand or Palm strikes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuD7waUUvVQ

After 3 well fought bouts, he was awarded a silver medal in his division. This bout ended with him winning due to effective palm striking in opponent's half guard that I personally believe is something for traditional arts to ponder. The iron palm and short power generation, I believe are from his Karate background. The idea of disciplined attacks with dominant position, fluidity in all range and relaxation at all time are a few things our CCK TCPM brings to the mat. I believe those things coupled with Mr. Franco’s Pankration full contact training showed that traditional arts can contribute in the post NHB era. Traditional martial arts, either as primary source of self defense art or as component of cross-training, are just as relevant as any other martial sports in the ring or on the mat IMHO. Of course, Kaveh’s personal drive and enormous hearts are huge factors in his success as well.

We would like to dedicate this video to the superb effort of Mr. Franco and everyone at Franco Kickboxing/Pankration in guiding Kaveh in his transition from traditional marital arts into full contact Pankration. On behalf of everyone at the Yellowknife Taiji Praying Mantis Kung Fu Club, I would like to also congratulate Kaveh and his wife, Keiko, who has been most supportive to his martial arts endeavors.

I hope you all enjoy this clip. Thank you and comments and feed backs are most welcome.

Sincerely,

Robert Hui (Mantis108)

PS please check the following clip for similarity in fighting approach to Pankration

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6Hzl1r0kVA&mode=user&search=


-------
We believe that Kung Fu training can be relevant in martial sports venues if it addresses the "whole package" issue whether it's ground 'n pound or ground fighting (especially a la BJJ). I can't claim any credit to Kaveh's success since he entered as an active member of Mr. Franco's gym. But I hope that you see that mantis Kung Fu training methodology has help in the transition from one discipline to another.

Mantis108

[unkokusai]

Why would a CMA person submit a BB grappler at his own game? That doesnt make much sense to me. If you want to work submission work, then practice a style that specializes in it. I have used my CMA to counter grappling, and submission work, but what you are talking about amounts to kind of the same thing as looking for a wrestler to KO a good boxer in a boxing only match. Not saying it cant be done, but isnt really specific to what even most good CMA people are going to be training for.

Yeah, that's why a wrestler wouldn't claim that his wrestling contained all the boxing skills necessary to beat a boxer. He wouldn't claim that if his wrestling skills were just 'applied the right way' he could box the boxer and win.

Some CMA people have a problem with this kind of thinking.

[Oso]

what about people who swear they use chin na on the ground for submission type grappling?

chin na could be used, and I've done it (including submitting a BJJ BB so there!) but there is nothing I've seen in CMA that teaches the same sort of body movement on the ground that western wrestling, judo, jj or bjj does.

IMHO, it's cultural...why would they call the only thing that even comes close 'dog' boxing? as I understand it the dog is not necessarily an animal high on the list of revered creatures in chinese culture...unless it's high on the menu!

the CMA'ists that claim grappling in the sense that we understand it today are in denial and would not stand a chance against a 'grappler' of an equal weight or level of experience.

[tattooedmonk]

Yeah, that's why a wrestler wouldn't claim that his wrestling contained all the boxing skills necessary to beat a boxer. He wouldn't claim that if his wrestling skills were just 'applied the right way' he could box the boxer and win.

Some CMA people have a problem with this kind of thinking.

Sounds like some one needs some cheese for their whine.

[David Jamieson]

I pose a challenge to all the CMAists out there on this board.

In light of our current CMA ground fighting thread in the Shaolin section, there is a large dispute it seems as to whether CMA has groundfighting.

I am an advocate of the mindset CMA Does have groundfighting, yet that the wholesale teaching, training and development to the point of competition worthy proficiency is NOT in place.

The venue for competative demonstration being MMA of course as its the prevelant venue for showing the world your stand up and ground all in one fight.

SO THE CHALLENGE:

capture on video, you, your school, your class mates, your teachers, ANYONE who is STRICT CMA, practicing heavy on the ground, showing us the skills.

I want to see it.

so you may say "but uncle pang, we dont have the footage"

well guys, go get it, find a friend with a cam, go buy one, rent one borrow one.

just get the footage and post it here to shut me up.

you send in a tape of your class doing classical boxing first, then we can wrestle.

[tattooedmonk]

have ground fighting ground monkey, Ground dragon, tiger, leopard etc.

[Oso]

have ground fighting ground monkey, Ground dragon, tiger, leopard etc.

complete bs, sorry.


something made up within the last 20 years.

[SevenStar]

have ground fighting ground monkey, Ground dragon, tiger, leopard etc.

ground fighting or ground grappling?

[Shaolinlueb]

can't i just knock out the bjj bb instead?

oh wait, thats too easy. nm.

[Shaolinlueb]

i was actually saw an eagle claw book from the 20's from ngok fie, and inside it, it shows an eagle claw master applying chin na while on the ground