The CMA Ground Challenge!

[tattooedmonk]

ground fighting or ground grappling?

fighting to means both grappling and striking, in addition to, anything else I can do to beat the other person senseless.

[unkokusai]

Sounds like some one needs some cheese for their whine.

I do enjoy wine, but you won't find any in that post.

[sunfist]

Id say even 'grappling on the ground' is too general a term. CMA clearly does have some grappling on the ground in terms of the application of chi na and such. You could extrapolate and say that maybe CMA has a reasonable submission arsenal, considering its vast array of joint locking methods, the mechanics of which dont really change on the ground.

What has never been presented is a cohesive system of positional grappling that is chinese in origin (and not an obvious and dubious retrofit). This would A: provide a vehicle for TCMA on the ground and give it a chance to be a truly viable system there and B: illustrate that historically TCMAists did practice and develop techniques for extended grappling on the ground, rather than it being a thing of oppertunism.

But then who knows, considering all the weird **** they came up with, it could be out there. I join the crowd in asking for it, but am too stingy to pay.

[SevenStar]

fighting to means both grappling and striking, in addition to, anything else I can do to beat the other person senseless.

sure, but ime, when cma guys say ground fighting they usually mean striking from the ground in an effort to get back to their feet.

[SevenStar]

in the past, lkfmdc has posted old photos of cma doing armbars, but this seems way more the exception than the rule - I can't remember if they were dog boxing pics or not

[SoCo KungFu]

in the past, lkfmdc has posted old photos of cma doing armbars, but this seems way more the exception than the rule - I can't remember if they were dog boxing pics or not

I would think so. But then things like arm bars are pretty much universal to just about any martial art so....

I think Oso said it best. Any pictures that do come up I think are going to be more of a circumstancial base. A CMA on the ground and pulling something out from the stand up game. But I don't think anyone will find actual ground grappling that isn't retrofit. Some Chi'Na can be used, once you know the mechanics, leverage and angles you can pretty pull out whatever comes in the heat of battle. But the problem is that I just don't think CMA practices ground grappling as a comprehensive skill. And I'm not sure it ever did. Not like as Oso stated, by the standards we think of today.

Personally I don't see the why people complain so much about it. If CMA doesn't have ground grappling...whatever. I still think the better part of CMA crossover to ground is the strikes and that's because I think CMA stand up when properly trained is one of the most comprehensive available. And there is always JJ/BJJ, MMA or wrestling for grappling. Its not THAT hard to find a place to train em if you just make the time. Cross-training is fun anyways and its always nice to expand your circle....And if you are going to learn might as well be from the best (meaning a specialist in that field). All the major MMA guys have multiple trainers right? A striking coach, a grappling coach, etc. I guess I was lucky, the school I started in had different teachers..kung fu, Arnis, kenpo and my sifu would bring in his Jj buddy to train us ground game. That and having friends in wrestling helps. So maybe I just don't have that style idolisation or something.

You know, I'm not sure how true it is because well it doesn't really matter. But once a Kung fu guy from China told me that back in those days it was considered disgraceful to be taken to the ground. Not sure to the truth to that. But that might be an indication. One thing I was thinking though. I'd be interested is anyone can tell me their opinion. Why if two different countries developed various fighting skills on the battle field (CMA and JMA), why is it that Japan developed structuralised ground fighting while China didn't?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Is anyone suggesting that CMA have submission grappling on par with BJJ, Sambo or any of the other "grappling oriented MA" ?

[Oso]

I would think so. But then things like arm bars are pretty much universal to just about any martial art so....

I think Oso said it best. Any pictures that do come up I think are going to be more of a circumstancial base. A CMA on the ground and pulling something out from the stand up game. But I don't think anyone will find actual ground grappling that isn't retrofit. Some Chi'Na can be used, once you know the mechanics, leverage and angles you can pretty pull out whatever comes in the heat of battle. But the problem is that I just don't think CMA practices ground grappling as a comprehensive skill. And I'm not sure it ever did. Not like as Oso stated, by the standards we think of today.

Personally I don't see the why people complain so much about it. If CMA doesn't have ground grappling...whatever. I still think the better part of CMA crossover to ground is the strikes and that's because I think CMA stand up when properly trained is one of the most comprehensive available. And there is always JJ/BJJ, MMA or wrestling for grappling. Its not THAT hard to find a place to train em if you just make the time. Cross-training is fun anyways and its always nice to expand your circle....And if you are going to learn might as well be from the best (meaning a specialist in that field). All the major MMA guys have multiple trainers right? A striking coach, a grappling coach, etc. I guess I was lucky, the school I started in had different teachers..kung fu, Arnis, kenpo and my sifu would bring in his Jj buddy to train us ground game. That and having friends in wrestling helps. So maybe I just don't have that style idolisation or something.

well said.

my first teachers grappling came from wrestling, my second from judo. I have yet to see any grappling in PL at all and it's the most traditional yet for me.

You know, I'm not sure how true it is because well it doesn't really matter. But once a Kung fu guy from China told me that back in those days it was considered disgraceful to be taken to the ground. Not sure to the truth to that. But that might be an indication. One thing I was thinking though. I'd be interested is anyone can tell me their opinion. Why if two different countries developed various fighting skills on the battle field (CMA and JMA), why is it that Japan developed structuralised ground fighting while China didn't?

i've heard one person speculate it was related to the armor but I can't remember the exact reason...I'll ask him again next week.

....????..... I'm not by any chance going to be at your school for some Shuai Chiao next month am I?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Grappling has exsisted in every MA and Martial Sport since there was ogranized MA and sports.

Yes, grappling is more "specialized" in some Cultures than other, many reasons for that, including the armour one mentioned in regards to feudal Japan.

And we all know that CMA DO have grappling in one way or another, though specialized ground GRAPPLING like BJJ and such is extremely rare to say the least.

[Three Harmonies]

All this **** talking yet not one vid!?!?!? Quit reaching for something that is not there guys. Like Oso said, ground game is not in CMA. Period. Certainly no where near on par with BJJ Sambo etc.
Even in Roberts post you see that his chap had to go train at a MMA gym to learn more of the ground game.
Silliness,

Jake

[MasterKiller]

in the past, lkfmdc has posted old photos of cma doing armbars, but this seems way more the exception than the rule - I can't remember if they were dog boxing pics or not

From "National Methods of Self Defense" 1936.

[Becca]

according to the thread, if you believe that, then either you haven't trained cma long enough or your teacher never learned it. are you sure you trained in authentic kung fu?

Or he knows that if the more biased people were to see "kung fu grappling" they would cry foul; that the kung fu stylist wasn't "pure". Hence, there is no point in this debate.

[David Jamieson]

all i can see in this argument is prideful youth hoping that what they think they have is better than what they don't. lol

having said that, I never learned any grappling in any cma I've studied and i still study and practice.

But, the wrestling I do is GR and when combined with cma kumna, I can do ok against jj pracs. It's not like mma is any sort of secret bomb. Its just another expression of martial art and it certainly has more than its fair share of not very good practitioners like any other practice.

Now that it is really popular, it probably has more people than ever that really suck at it.

[tattooedmonk]

All this **** talking yet not one vid!?!?!? Quit reaching for something that is not there guys. Like Oso said, ground game is not in CMA. Period. Certainly no where near on par with BJJ Sambo etc.
Even in Roberts post you see that his chap had to go train at a MMA gym to learn more of the ground game.
Silliness,

Jake

and because you and oso said it that makes it true right??

If you guys are having problems witht this I am glad . Maybe it will help you utilize the techniques in your forms more and explore your individual arts to a profound level.

NHB / MMA has a lot of you really f#cked up.

A lot of it has to do with ego and testosterone.

And someone in CMA going into NHB competitions will prove nothing other than they can adapt to the sport....... which anyone can.

Maybe the CMA community is affraid that they will get their asses handed to them or maybe we just do not care about what MMA and NHB is about ....which is ego , money , fame , etc. .

This is not what CMA is about.

It is just a reflection of our times, just like the Gladiator games of Rome.

I am not saying that is what it is all about , but for most it is.

Based on the philosophy and the history of CMA it stands to reason that there is groundgrappling/ fighting with in the Art, equal to that of any other martial art..

[tattooedmonk]

From "National Methods of Self Defense" 1936.

These all fall into the catagory of Chin Na.
ground1.jpg (61.9 KB, 7 views)
ground2.jpg (87.8 KB, 6 views)
ground3.jpg (56.9 KB, 6 views)