Is BJJ like Taiji on the ground?

[PangQuan]

Quit being such a puss. Geez.

lol, i cant help it, its all those years of CMA


j/k of course i love me some cma

[Fu-Pow]

I was talking about just the grappling part. Take a couple of Taiji guys and tell them to go all out, trying to take each other down, throw or push each with each one trying as hard as he can. It will look much like other forms of grappling.

Yes, I'd say thats probably true but I would guess there would be a little more fluidity to it, one movement changing into the other with no gaps as each opponent tries to find the other opponents point of excessive resistance.

You see something similar sometimes in Judo (from the video and demos I've seen) where two opponents are feeling each other out trying to find a point of leverage. To the observer it looks like not much is happening and then whamo!, someone gets thrown or knocked down. Its the same idea in Taiji, its just that it doesn't always end in a throw, it could be a push, a strike, a lock, a sweep, a kick etc.

The Taiji founders codified the training method of listening and leading into a set of exercises which is typically called Push Hands (kind of misnomer.)

The way most people do push hands anyways is not correct, its too passive. In Taiji push hands there are two type of errors. One is called Ding and one is called Diu. Ding is "dumb force" where you are just resisting. Diu is "empty" meaning that you are too passive, you are running away and not actively leading the opponent. It usually ends up that the if you are Ding in one place in your body you are Diu in another.

The goal of Taiji is to stay in that zone between Diu and Ding through the whole body. Continuous and seamless (Taiji is sometimes called continuous fist). Not resisting but not letting go. This is the goal so that in the clinch when your opponent tries to "wrestle" you, you just lead them somewhere else that is not to their advantage and thats when you....whamo!.....apply your counter...whatever that might be.

(As an aside, the reason I made the switch over from CLF to Taiji exclusively is that the Taji strategy began to make alot more sense to me then trying to overwhelm your opponent with strikes to begin with. Also being a big guy subtlety is more important than raw power because when you're big you already have a lot of weight behind your strikes.)

So I'm wondering if BJJ is similar...just on the ground. I guess the only way to really find out is to go and find out.

Thanks

FP

[Fu-Pow]

Knifefighter-

P.S. Here's a pretty good representation of what I'm talking about. Granted, these guys aren't trying to take each others heads off and there is some choreography to it...... this is Taiji San Shou (ie fixed freestyle push hands.) You can see how he leads the opponent to an unfavorable position and then applies force. Sometimes the change in favorable position happens very quickly (like at 0:22).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DADYbpj4oMw

[BruceSteveRoy]

Renzo Gracie
Carmie Zocchi
The Santos brothrs
Marcelo Garcia
Fabio Clemente
Emerson Souza
etc
etc
etc

probably one of the best cities in the US for BJJ

just out of curiosity what is the going price for bjj in nyc? i imagine its expensive bc its nyc but i would think that with so many talented schools they would have to keep their prices fairly competitive.

[lkfmdc]

I noticed you put Renzo Gracie at the top of that list. Is he the best one?

I am now an evil nasty MMA type, but I guess I got some TMA left in me because I put Renzo on top becaue the man deserves that respect

Not only is he wickedly good, he's as good a teacher, plus he was the first BJJ in NY, plus he has the biggest organization.

I think everyone I listed is good (I've trained with all but Marcello and Souza). Each has their own "flavor"

[cjurakpt]

I was talking about just the grappling part. Take a couple of Taiji guys and tell them to go all out, trying to take each other down, throw or push each with each one trying as hard as he can. It will look much like other forms of grappling.

for example, some local taiji guys I like to go play with once in a while...

http://www.taichili.com/training_for...t_competit.htm

[Knifefighter]

Knifefighter-

P.S. Here's a pretty good representation of what I'm talking about. Granted, these guys aren't trying to take each others heads off and there is some choreography to it...... this is Taiji San Shou (ie fixed freestyle push hands.) You can see how he leads the opponent to an unfavorable position and then applies force. Sometimes the change in favorable position happens very quickly (like at 0:22).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DADYbpj4oMw

That is not all out... and that is the reason it looks different from wrestling.

for example, some local taiji guys I like to go play with once in a while...

http://www.taichili.com/training_for...t_competit.htm

That second example is... and it looks very similar to what wrestling looks like when you are only trying to push your opponent. (Notice the fighting for underhooks and overwrap arm control when two people are going live vs. the artificial "push hands" when partners are compliant.)

Throw in takedowns and it would be even more similar to wrestling.

[Fu-Pow]

That is not all out... and that is the reason it looks different from wrestling.

Not all out....right I think I already said that in so many words...but it is "all out" within the confines of this competitive exercise. Just like Judo has competitive rules so does this exercise in Taji. This is just one version of Taiji San Shou. The other version is where you don't start in contact with each other and that's more like regular San Shou and you would be better off with adequate protection.

That second example is... and it looks very similar to what wrestling looks like when you are only trying to push your opponent. (Notice the fighting for underhooks and overwrap arm control when two people are going live vs. the artificial "push hands" when partners are compliant.)

Firstly, these people are also not going "all out."

Secondly, this is a very poor demonstration in terms of Taiji. My teacher, who is much more skilled than myself, could school any one of these people and not even blink an eye...for the following reason:

In Taiji one goal is to maintain Zhong Ding or central equilbrium. One very basic thing that means is if you relax you should not fall down by your own weight.

These people are leaning onto each other, if the other person was not their they would fall down. By any measure that is not good Taiji. If you look at my example you see that the person in control is also always under control of his own body, not already falling down. They are commiting both the errors that I mentioned they are Ding and they are Diu. Resisting force and hanging on each other.

As I stated, I don't know much about wrestling other than what I have observed. However, if you are equating this example of Taiji with wrestling then I don't think that wrestling is the same as Taiji for this very fundamental reason.

All out or not the Taiji player should have the very fundamental quality of Zhong Ding or uprightness.


FP

[Oso]

no, taiji is like bjj in the air














somebody had to say it...

[cjurakpt]

Firstly, these people are also not going "all out."

really? you should come down to a class and push a bit when you get to NYC and then you can decide if that's not the case - I'll be happy to give you an intro - they lov it when they can play with new folks

Secondly, this is a very poor demonstration in terms of Taiji. My teacher, who is much more skilled than myself, could school any one of these people and not even blink an eye...for the following reason:

same invite to your teacher...although you may want to get his ok before speaking on his behalf...

This is a very poor demonstration in terms of Taiji. In Taiji the goal is to maintain Zhong Ding or central equilbrium. One very basic thing that means is if you relax you should not fall down by your own weight.
These people are leaning onto each other, if the other person was not their they would fall down.

derrr - well, if the other person wasn't there, you wouldn't be leaning in the first place; the true test is, if I suddenly break off my contact or if I redirect you as you "lean", would you fall? answer: it depends, based on how well you learn to respond to that; in other words, the idea is how to apply so-called taiji principles against a person fully resisting you; and leaning into someone to various degrees is one way of doing that; and, actually, in a way, it is retaining central equlibrium - when there are two people, the center is inbetween them, so balancing the forces on either side (e.g., leaning) creates a central equilibrium

By any measure that is not good Taiji. If you look at my example you see that the person in control is also always under control of his own body, not already falling down.

first off, the first clip has a good amount of compliance, because it's obviously a demo - the guy doing all the falling is prepared and allows the techniques to be executed fully;
with the second clip, no one is falling anywhere - I have pushed with these guys on a number of occasions, and I promise you, despite the forward momentum, people are often (not always, of course) maintaining their balance quite nicely when they need to - BTW, if you look around the website, you will notice that the teacher is a mult-time national push hands champion, so obviously he's doing something right...
what is "good" tai chi anyway? I'm tired of people applying abstract concepts to the messy reality of life: "good" tai chi can be lots of things, and I don't give a cr@p about whether the "classics" say it or not; "good" tai chi is having balance in your life - you can have the best posture in the world and go home and be a sh1t to your family - is that "good" tai chi? getting in the circle and doing your darndest to push someone out while trying to apply listening sensitivity under a high pressure situation is "good" tai chi - it may not look like what it's "supposed" to look like, but what does that mean?

All out or not the Taiji player should have the very fundamental quality of Zhong Ding or uprightness.

again, all the "should" have this or that - who has the copyright on the tai principles anyway? why is it that, if they are so universal, that they only a re "working" when the interraction between two people is of a certain nature? face it - most push hands is an artifact that allows people to engage in some sort of exchange without challenging them too much in certain areas; well, that's not life, and personally, I think that we need to stop with all the stuffyness and open our minds abit as to what the principles are really talking about; just remember, Mr. Yang toned down his art to teach a bunch of Mandarin pretty boys, and needed some high falutin' jargon to go along with what he taught - what better way to get some pampered nobles to feel that they had achieved something then by making the ultimate goal of their practice to be maintaining their poise and not working too hard? yeesh

[Knifefighter]

My teacher, who is much more skilled than myself, could school any one of these people and not even blink an eye...for the following reason:These people are leaning onto each other, if the other person was not their they would fall down. By any measure that is not good Taiji.

Yes, they are doing too much leaning in some of the clips and some of them could be offbalanced and thrown because of that... which is exactly what a good wrestler would do (assuming the person did not readjust)- and there were a couple of examples of that type of offbalancing being done.That being said..

Have your teacher do live, full-out push hands against a wrestler. If he is able to hang with them, his taiji will look just like wrestling. If you think he would somehow be able to throw them about and maintain his theoretical "taiji form", you have been sold a bill of goods.

The fact is that all real grappling looks relatively similar when two people are working live without compliance.

[cjurakpt]

Yes, they are doing too much leaning in some of the clips and some of them could be offbalanced and thrown because of that... which is exactly what a good wrestler would do (assuming the person did not readjust)- and there were a couple of examples of that type of offbalancing being done.That being said..

Have your teacher do live, full-out push hands against a wrestler. If he is able to hang with them, his taiji will look just like wrestling. If you think he would somehow be able to throw them about and maintain his theoretical "taiji form", you have been sold a bill of goods.

re: the leaning - again, it's a matter of skill - certainly, some people may lean too much and get tossed, but they will then hopefully learn how much leaning is ok, how much is too much, and how to re-adjust as needed;

re: hanging with a wrestler - agreed - let's see how long you can maintain "classical" tai chi posture against someone who doesn't give a cr@p about Zhang San Feng...

[Knifefighter]

re: the leaning - again, it's a matter of skill - certainly, some people may lean too much and get tossed, but they will then hopefully learn how much leaning is ok, how much is too much, and how to re-adjust as needed;

Exactly... just like wrestling.

[Fu-Pow]

derrr - well, if the other person wasn't there, you wouldn't be leaning in the first place; the true test is, if I suddenly break off my contact or if I redirect you as you "lean", would you fall? answer: it depends, based on how well you learn to respond to that; in other words, the idea is how to apply so-called taiji principles against a person fully resisting you;

If they are "fully resisting" you then they are creating something for you, a point for you to exploit. They are Ding and this can be exploited. One of the central tenets of Taiji.

and leaning into someone to various degrees is one way of doing that; and, actually, in a way, it is retaining central equlibrium - when there are two people, the center is inbetween them, so balancing the forces on either side (e.g., leaning) creates a central equilibrium

[quote]

If somebody moves and you fall you don't have Zhong Ding. Here's an analogy, if you push a sphere along the table there is always a "plumb line" from the top of the sphere to the point of contact with the table. The ball can roll but that line is never lost. Its the same thing in Taiji but to make the human body behave like a ball takes lots of practice.

first off, the first clip has a good amount of compliance, because it's obviously a demo - the guy doing all the falling is prepared and allows the techniques to be executed fully;

Its a demo and they are not going all out. But it is also "freestyle" not a two man "set" so I think it is representative of certain elements of Taiji in real time.

with the second clip, no one is falling anywhere - I have pushed with these guys on a number of occasions, and I promise you, despite the forward momentum, people are often (not always, of course) maintaining their balance quite nicely when they need to - BTW, if you look around the website, you will notice that the teacher is a mult-time national push hands champion, so obviously he's doing something right...

WTF, these guys are totally off balance alot of the time! They just know how to "save" their balance when they start to actually pick up momentum. I don't care about trophies, push hands "competitions" are kind of silly because they take the word "push" too literally....ie people that are strong win.

what is "good" tai chi anyway? I'm tired of people applying abstract concepts to the messy reality of life: "good" tai chi can be lots of things, and I don't give a cr@p about whether the "classics" say it or not; "good" tai chi is having balance in your life - you can have the best posture in the world and go home and be a sh1t to your family - is that "good" tai chi? getting in the circle and doing your darndest to push someone out while trying to apply listening sensitivity under a high pressure situation is "good" tai chi - it may not look like what it's "supposed" to look like, but what does that mean?

In this context "good" means not very high level of skill, not whether you are good to your family.

again, all the "should" have this or that - who has the copyright on the tai principles anyway? why is it that, if they are so universal, that they only a re "working" when the interraction between two people is of a certain nature? face it - most push hands is an artifact that allows people to engage in some sort of exchange without challenging them too much in certain areas; well, that's not life, and personally, I think that we need to stop with all the stuffyness and open our minds abit as to what the principles are really talking about; just remember, Mr. Yang toned down his art to teach a bunch of Mandarin pretty boys, and needed some high falutin' jargon to go along with what he taught - what better way to get some pampered nobles to feel that they had achieved something then by making the ultimate goal of their practice to be maintaining their poise and not working too hard? yeesh

You're all over the place here so I won't respond.

FP

[Fu-Pow]

re: the leaning - again, it's a matter of skill - certainly, some people may lean too much and get tossed, but they will then hopefully learn how much leaning is ok, how much is too much, and how to re-adjust as needed;

re: hanging with a wrestler - agreed - let's see how long you can maintain "classical" tai chi posture against someone who doesn't give a cr@p about Zhang San Feng...

Your argument is a straw man and you've got red herring all over the place. I never said anyone shouldn't be working hard or that they will always maintain a perfect posture...my point is that your video example is not demonstrating a very fundamental Taiji principle.....a principle that is fundamental to Taiji working as a martial art!!!!