Is BJJ like Taiji on the ground?

[Knifefighter]

Your argument is a straw man and you've got red herring all over the place. I never said anyone shouldn't be working hard or that they will always maintain a perfect posture...my point is that your video example is not demonstrating a very fundamental Taiji principle.....a principle that is fundamental to Taiji working as a martial art!!!!

If you want to see these principles in action with skilled people, just lookup some NCAA wrestling match clips.

[Fu-Pow]

If you want to see these principles in action with skilled people, just lookup some NCAA wrestling match clips.

I don't need to, I just go to my Taiji class on Sat morning!!

[cjurakpt]

If they are "fully resisting" you then they are creating something for you, a point for you to exploit. They are Ding and this can be exploited. One of the central tenets of Taiji.

nice theory; try it in practice under high pressure conditions and see how easy that is to do...

If somebody moves and you fall you don't have Zhong Ding.

ok - no argument - but the question is, do you think you can develop this so that it will work in a pressureed, live situation if you never train it that way?

Here's an analogy, if you push a sphere along the table there is always a "plumb line" from the top of the sphere to the point of contact with the table. The ball can roll but that line is never lost. Its the same thing in Taiji but to make the human body behave like a ball takes lots of practice.

certainly there are "round" elements you utilize, but because the human body is not a sphere nor is it designed to behave in gravity like a sphere, the analogy is limited

Its a demo and they are not going all out. But it is also "freestyle" not a two man "set" so I think it is representative of certain elements of Taiji in real time.

yes, certain elements - the ones that operate very nicely when there is agreement between two people

WTF, these guys are totally off balance alot of the time! They just know how to "save" their balance when they start to actually pick up momentum.

the harder people go and the more resistance they apply, the more likely they will be off balance - just like in life (sorry, another "irrelevant" analogy you will have to bear), when two people disagree strongly on a point, the more likely the will become emotionaly unbalanced; as for not caring about trophies and competition - well, neither do I - however, I appreciate the opportunity to pressure test my pushing in a situation where the agreement is essentially nil; and if you think about it, learning how to recover your balance if it's upset is a pretty good skill to have, if, say, in the event that you do happen to get surprised on the street and do loose your center - you seem to relegate "just knowing" how to save your balance as some sort of lesser skill...

I don't care about trophies, push hands "competitions" are kind of silly because they take the word "push" too literally....ie people that are strong win.

that statement would seemingly go against your tai chi principles now, doesn't it? if you are doing "correct" tai chi, you should be able to beat the stronger guy in pushing, right? of course, in reality, superior physical strength is an asset like anything else, and using it in no way takes away from taichi principles

In this context "good" means not very high level of skill, not whether you are good to your family.

I was attempting to broaden the perspective; I guess that this aspect is something you do not look at in context of your training

You're all over the place here so I won't respond.

my point is that your argument is basically an appeal to authority: the tai chi principles are "x" and should be followed without deviation, that there is only one "right" way; that sounds vrey nice in theory, but has yet to be demonstrated in my experience when you do not have an agreeing partner; this theoretical world of what tai chi should be like is based on some construct that was pretty much invented by Yang Lu Chan in order that he could fill his rice bowl; if you want to talk about health and self-development, then it's fine; if you want to talk about real fighting, most of that stuff goes out the window; tai chi principles are not a magical formula that if done "correctly" necessarilly overide basic physical realities like size, strength and speed; simple as that

Your argument is a straw man and you've got red herring all over the place. I never said anyone shouldn't be working hard or that they will always maintain a perfect posture...my point is that your video example is not demonstrating a very fundamental Taiji principle.....a principle that is fundamental to Taiji working as a martial art!!!!

if you want to see tai chi work as a martial art, then none of what we are talking about applies: go read your history and see what Yang Lu Chan was famous for fighting with, and that should give you some idea of the reality of tai chi in a martial context; furthermore, performing under intense pressure regardless of what you do will always be a superior method of training for reality; as such, the way that the principles function in that sort of situation are different than how they manifest during more genteel types of exchanges

[Nick Forrer]

If you're going to train BJJ in NYC it HAS to be either Marcelo Garcia or Renzo Gracie...seriously

one is P4P perhaps the best competitive grappler in the world right now

the other probably has produced the most top guys (i.e. US born Blackbelts) in the US - certainly on the east coast

if you train with Renzo make sure you train with John Danaher - one of the black belts there.

[Water Dragon]

No problem, you won't hear Chen speaking much about chi and that other stuff, he has a "physics" reply for anything Taiji related and he can hit with serious power, even now.

Just pour the coke man, just pour the coke.

[Fu-Pow]

............

It gets a bit laborious going quote by quote and if I quote your quotes then I sometimes can't remember what your quote was in response to. So let me come back to paragraph format here as opposed to going point for point.

Firstly, I understand your argument that Taiji principles are abstractions, that nothing in real life is going to exactly follow them. Just like mathematical equations are never going to be exact representations of reality.

How much deviation from the abstraction is acceptable for us to still call it Taiji in principle? I think that's what we're arguing here, right?

In all practical fighting terms this doesn't seem to matter. So he used force, so what? He still won the match or the trophy or whatever. It got the job done.

Ok, that's fine. However, if you are using force against force and not adhering quite closely to the Taiji principles then as soon as you meet a bigger, stronger, faster opponent you will lose. And there is always a bigger, stronger, faster opponent out there.

That's why these Taiji guideposts exist because they're a roadmap to a level of skill where those factors while still there become less important. So what if you are big and strong, if you don't have balance I can throw you on the ground? How much is strength worth if there is nothing to grab onto?

Maybe its all a delusion/illusion? In my own first person experience I have encountered this level of skill. I'm much bigger, stronger and younger than my Taiji teacher, yet he can best me everytime I go against him. I probably outweigh him by 100 pounds yet he can toss me around the room like I was nothing, and trust me I'm not letting him. It has nothing to do with strength and everything to do with Taiji skil.

As to your other point, if you cannot demonstrate the fundamentals when you are not going "all out" then how could you possibly adhere to them when you are? See above for why you should adhere to those fundamental principles.

Lastly, in regards to the analogy of a ball I think it is still a good one. The thing you have to take into a account is that the human body is not really a "ball." But if you move the right parts, in the right way, with the right coordination then you create a kind of "virtual ball" within the body. If you're moving out of sync then the "virtual ball" no longer exists.

Anyways, I'll be in your area soon so if you want to get together so that we can exchange notes that'd be great.

FP

[Christopher M]

Not all out....right I think I already said that in so many words...but it is "all out" within the confines of this competitive exercise. Just like Judo has competitive rules so does this exercise in Taji. This is just one version of Taiji San Shou.

No, it's not sanshou at all, it's tuishou, as the video description says. The goals of the two are entirely different. So Knifefighter is basically right: the main reason this doesn't look like grappling or wrestling is because it isn't grappling or wrestling. And Mr. Chen would be the first one to tell you this.

And even if it were sanshou, it would still be a bad example of what a 'taiji fight' would look like, because of the huge difference in skill between the two practitioners.

[Fu-Pow]

No, it's not sanshou at all, it's tuishou, as the video description says.

Its free style push hands which is what I stated above....referred to in Chinese as san shou lit. free hand. There are different kinds of san shou in Taiji....ie different rule sets to train certain aspects.

The goals of the two are entirely different.

The goals of what are entirely different? San shou and tui shou? I don't get it..... tui shou can be san shou so your statement makes no sense.

So Knifefighter is basically right: the main reason this doesn't look like grappling or wrestling is because it isn't grappling or wrestling. And Mr. Chen would be the first one to tell you this.

You're right its not grappling or wrestling......its...guess what.... freestyle pushhands. (And I doubt you know Mr. Chen so you probably shouldn't speak for him.)

And even if it were sanshou, it would still be a bad example of what a 'taiji fight' would look like,

Your right its not an example of a taiji fight....its....yes you guessed it.....freestyle push hands.

because of the huge difference in skill between the two practitioners.

Agree huge difference in skill, one is the teacher and the other the student...quite obviously.

Ah Ok...I get it......I think the problem here is that you are confusing Tui Shou pre-set exercises with freestyle Tui Shou......which is a kind of pressure testing within certain boundaries....also known as FREESTYLE PUSHHANDS!!!!

[sunfist]

Have your teacher do live, full-out push hands against a wrestler. If he is able to hang with them, his taiji will look just like wrestling. If you think he would somehow be able to throw them about and maintain his theoretical "taiji form", you have been sold a bill of goods.

Is this not also true of BJJ guy wrestling an experienced wrestler? That pretty jiu jitsu form will go out the window.

Id say that both styles do indeed emphasise leverage and alignment over strength. Thats just specialisation for you. Its also the way of specialisation that each of these two styles includes something wrestling doesnt.

[unkokusai]

Its also the way of specialisation that each of these two styles includes something wrestling doesnt.

Ok, what would that be?

[sunfist]

Submissions and strikes, respectively. Good tai chi people hit hard.

[Liokault]

My teacher, who is much more skilled than myself, could school any one of these people and not even blink an eye...for the following reason:

FP

Should read:

My teacher, who is much more skilled than myself, could school any one of these people and not even blink an eye, but being a vampire cannot be caught on anyform of image capture device, hence my not putting a clip of him schooling anyone, but rest assured he could...for the following reason:

FP

[cjurakpt]

oh snap...

[SevenStar]

Is this not also true of BJJ guy wrestling an experienced wrestler? That pretty jiu jitsu form will go out the window.

Id say that both styles do indeed emphasise leverage and alignment over strength. Thats just specialisation for you. Its also the way of specialisation that each of these two styles includes something wrestling doesnt.

since when do we care about looking pretty while grappling? And since when did wrestling not include use of leverage? grappling is all about leverage. However, you CANNOT deny or downplay the use of strength. that's just how it is when people of equal skill are competing against one another.

[SevenStar]

I guess you can consider it pretty tho - here is one of our guys catching someone in a foot lock:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FXsv3gc5YM8