Is BJJ like Taiji on the ground?

[Fu-Pow]

Should read:

I would but unfortunately he doesn't let anyone video tape him. But that's why I posted the clip of Joseph Chen, he's a classmate of my Sifu. So I'm using that as a representation of the skill level we're talking about.

BTW, smarty pants, where's YOUR video. I posted mine.

FP

[bodhitree]

I don't know who is the best teacher, but I do know I would kill to be able to train with Marcello Garcia.

You'd pretty much have to, one of my buddies wanted to get him here in Pittsburgh for a seminar, too $$$$$$

[Christopher M]

Ah Ok...I get it......I think the problem here is that you are confusing Tui Shou pre-set exercises with freestyle Tui Shou......which is a kind of pressure testing within certain boundaries....also known as FREESTYLE PUSHHANDS!!!!

No, the problem is that you're confusing tuishou (a gong training for the eight energies and the four skills) with sanshou (fight/application training). Freestyle tuishou is still tuishou (it is still gong training), not sanshou. Even if you want to call it sanshou, it's still gong training, which is the point you seem to be missing.

BTW, I'm on your side here: I don't think taiji application skills look like wrestling application skills, any more than BJJ applications look like wrestling applications. They're different arts. But taiji application skills don't look like tuishou either. And insisting otherwise to an audience that knows a thing or two about fighting is simply doing a disservice to the art.

[Fu-Pow]

No, the problem is that you're confusing tuishou (a gong training for the eight energies and the four skills) with sanshou (fight/application training).

No I'm not. San shou literally means free hand. There's all kinds of different san shou. The idea of san shou is that its spontaneous, unrehearsed. Now if I'd said it was san da then you might have an argument, because san da means....free hit.

Freestyle tuishou is still tuishou (it is still gong training), not sanshou.

Wrong. If its gong training then its not freestyle. Its freestyle because the pattern is not preset and in the instance I presented its competitive. Although in this instance it wasn't a competition it was a demonstration of freestyle push hands.

Even if you want to call it sanshou, it's still gong training, which is the point you seem to be missing.

Its not that that's what I want to call it....that's what IT IS called! And no its not gong training, its training applications within a certain ruleset. In the example presented they aren't doing any striking applications, only shuai and na.

BTW, I'm on your side here: I don't think taiji application skills look like wrestling application skills, any more than BJJ applications look like wrestling applications. They're different arts. But taiji application skills don't look like tuishou either.

You're right tuishou doesn't look like applications. Freestyle tuishou aka san shou looks like applications....because it is. I don't remember seeing people getting thrown in gong training...maybe that's just me.

And insisting otherwise to an audience that knows a thing or two about fighting is simply doing a disservice to the art.

Just because you know one fighting art doesn't mean you know them all. It'd be like saying hey I'm a professor of chemistry therefore I know everything about physics. Yes, in a general way they're both science but you don't know the specifics and in this case....you apparently don't know the terminology.

FP

[Knifefighter]

Is this not also true of BJJ guy wrestling an experienced wrestler? That pretty jiu jitsu form will go out the window..

BJJ is the same as wrestling except that BJJ has submissions and doesn't mind working from the back. Wrestling and BJJ would look pretty much the same if you were to take out working from the guard/ half guard and submissions.

[Knifefighter]

Ok, that's fine. However, if you are using force against force and not adhering quite closely to the Taiji principles then as soon as you meet a bigger, stronger, faster opponent you will lose. And there is always a bigger, stronger, faster opponent out there.

If skills are equal, the bigger, faster, stronger opponent will win most of the time.

[Fu-Pow]

If skills are equal, the bigger, faster, stronger opponent will win most of the time.

Agree.... if skills are equal....but not all skills, nor all opponents are created equal.

Ok, now I'm just being a smart ass. .

FP

[PangQuan]

In your standard BJJ/JJJ class/school/gym

what are typical conditioning exersizes done in regards to fitness, not fight application.

in other words, do they have you spend time running, or is that expected to be done on your own time? I'll assume strength training would come in the form of resistance and tools (actual grappling/medicineball/etc.) and let you do weights on your own time.

Just a bit curious.

Its been a growing desire to take some grappling training though at the moment my schedule is pretty hectic, I expect it to calm down in the next few months, so I'm basically just kind of feeling out what I might be able to expect from those of you experienced.


Ive been looking at these places.

http://www.straightblastgym.com/

http://tqfc.com/Default.aspx

[unkokusai]

Wrestling and BJJ would look pretty much the same if you were to take out working from the guard/ half guard and submissions.

Except that the BJJ guys would always lose!

[SevenStar]

In your standard BJJ/JJJ class/school/gym

what are typical conditioning exersizes done in regards to fitness, not fight application.

in other words, do they have you spend time running, or is that expected to be done on your own time? I'll assume strength training would come in the form of resistance and tools (actual grappling/medicineball/etc.) and let you do weights on your own time.

Just a bit curious.

Its been a growing desire to take some grappling training though at the moment my schedule is pretty hectic, I expect it to calm down in the next few months, so I'm basically just kind of feeling out what I might be able to expect from those of you experienced.


Ive been looking at these places.

http://www.straightblastgym.com/

http://tqfc.com/Default.aspx

running, rolling / breakfalling, cartwheeling, handstands, carioca, sprinting, jumping jacks, ab work, neck exercises, pushups, rolling to handstands, burpees, etc. done continuously in follow the leader format.

sprinting with a partner on your back, squats while holding partner in fireman's carry position across your shoulders, wheelbarrow, plyometric work, etc.

rolling (grappling), pummeling, takedown drills, escape drills, sprawling...

approx. 30 mins of class time is dedicated to this type of stuff. in addition, we roll for 30 - 45 mins of each class.

[PangQuan]

running, rolling / breakfalling, cartwheeling, handstands, carioca, sprinting, jumping jacks, ab work, neck exercises, pushups, rolling to handstands, burpees, etc. done continuously in follow the leader format.

sprinting with a partner on your back, squats while holding partner in fireman's carry position across your shoulders, wheelbarrow, plyometric work, etc.

rolling (grappling), pummeling, takedown drills, escape drills, sprawling...

approx. 30 mins of class time is dedicated to this type of stuff. in addition, we roll for 30 - 45 mins of each class.

sweet!

that sounds pretty similar to the way my old shaolin teacher would run his classes when more of the hardcore people were present.

Minus all the ground work of course

Its a real shame that I dont have an outlet like this right now, the wing chun school i go to doesnt do this type of conditioning....

Ive been thinking of cutting back the WC to 1 or 2 days a week and starting up some grappling....

[SevenStar]

Go for it - you won't be disappointed.

[Liokault]

I would but unfortunately he doesn't let anyone video tape him. But that's why I posted the clip of Joseph Chen, he's a classmate of my Sifu. So I'm using that as a representation of the skill level we're talking about.

BTW, smarty pants, where's YOUR video. I posted mine.

FP

Being a Vampire means that i'm unable to point you towards any of the many clips of me on the interweb.

[sunfist]

since when do we care about looking pretty while grappling?

I wasnt the one who brought asthetics up. Simply pointing out it does infact support the comparison. And i agree BJJ (and taiji) can look **** purty, especially when youve got a significant skill difference.

And since when did wrestling not include use of leverage? grappling is all about leverage. However, you CANNOT deny or downplay the use of strength. that's just how it is when people of equal skill are competing against one another.

Its a question of emphasis, by focusing less on strength, you emphasise the aspects of leverage more. I was not saying strength is ineffective, simply that it is a lesser component of both BJJ and taiji than it is of wrestling. The questions of why some arts do choose to emphasise strength less, and where an ideal balance should be struck are interesting, but ultimately irrelevant to the original comparison.

[sunfist]

BJJ is the same as wrestling except that BJJ has submissions and doesn't mind working from the back. Wrestling and BJJ would look pretty much the same if you were to take out working from the guard/ half guard and submissions.

Generally ive found it looks pretty different, but most schools are integrating wrestling in increasing amounts. Afterall, if this is not the case you tend to end up with the amusing paradox of skilled groundfighters who couldnt take someone down to save their life

I suppose you could take the view that its a progressive martial art, and therefore 'everything is BJJ', but this is not what is being sold. Was it rickson who said something along the lines of 'the jujitsu is flawless, defeat is because of the flaws in the man'?

Now if we instead use the term sub grappling, it becomes a fairer statement, only sub grappling isnt a single art but a combination.