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Thread: Alan Orr Body Structure

  1. #1

    Alan Orr Body Structure

    I read the Alan Orr article from Martial Arts Illustrated, where he talks about something called the body structure from the Chu Sau Lei wing chun system, does anybody know what is this about? I hope I don't have to spend hundreds of dollars on his dvd's just to find out. Is there any new approach to wing chun apart from all the theories we are already familiarized such a s the centerline, triangle etc etc?

  2. #2
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    Search this forum for the term "Structure Study Project" and you will find a few threads that may offer you some info about Body Structure.
    'Talk is cheap because there is an excess of supply over demand'

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    Hmm where to start

    Three caveats before I respond:

    1) talking up your own lineage is a common thing in wc - everyone thinks the wc they do is the best/most original etc. No one thinks they are doing sub standard wc.

    2) Anything I say will probably sound like marketing hyperbole/commercial puff - so sorry if it does

    3) - I can only speak from my own experience in wing chun and although I have seen and touched hands with a lot of branches I can obviously not comment on all the wing chun out there

    so with that said plus the standard IMO, AFAIK, IM(limited)E etc. etc. here goes

    - The body structure taught in CSLWCK is both complete and systematised. By this I mean that some other WC has body structure but it is not complete (they only have part of the structure picture so to speak) or they do not have it systematised (they dont have the forms or drills or understanding to pass it on effectively) - of course being complete and being systematised are closely related to one another.

    - Structure in essence is how we recieve force and how we issue force - If I have structure and you dont have structure you should be unable to break my structure whilst I should be able to break yours easily..... Once you have broken someones structure hitting then becomes the easy part. A common mistake is to try and hit someone before their structure is broken or to break your own structure in the process of trying to hit(for example by overextending). Therefore, In CSL WCK we always try to maintain our own structure whilst attempting to break our opponents. This IMO is the true function of chi sau and why it so misinterpreted by many (since neither they nor their partner have structure).

    - good structure is not a fixed form (i.e. one static stance or position that can be frozen in time) but something we can dynamically adjust and functionally adapt to the situation we find ourselves in. This is why people look at our body structure and express concern that it doesnt look like wck - what this reveals is that they are looking at the external form and not the function (which is putting the proverbial cart before the horse IMO). Another thing they say is that we are simply collapsing our bridge and leaning on our opponent - neither are correct although someone with a low level of structural understanding may think this.

    -One good way of understanding structure are the structure tests that sigung Robert Chu devised. There is an article on this on his web site plus another excellent article by the much maligned Terence Niehoff called 'what drives us'. I cant put it any better than Terence has put it there so go and read those two articles.

    - Speaking of Terence - Structure alone isnt enough - you obviously need sparring and conditioning to be functional - but structure will give you confidence in sparring and against other fighters (e.g. boxing or wrestling). IMO without structure you are better off doing another martial art.

    - As the story goes when you would chi sau with Yip man 3 things would happen - 1) he would never step back, 2) he would never hit you 3) you would always be off balance i.e. either on your toes (falling forward) or on your heels (falling back). Thats a big hint right there. This tells you that Yip man had structure as these are the three big give aways.

    - If you really want the information either get the dvds, or come and train with us. Or did you think people just give valuable information away for free? If learning correct structure was to radically improve your wing chun wouldnt it be worth the money? Whats the alternative - to spend the rest of your life doing crappy wc? It takes a lot to empty your cup especially when you have made a large emotional, financial and temporal effort in something else.
    'In the woods there is always a sound...In the city aways a reflection.'

    'What about the desert?'

    'You dont want to go into the desert'

    - Spartan

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Forrer View Post
    ...If learning correct structure was to radically improve your wing chun wouldnt it be worth the money? Whats the alternative - to spend the rest of your life doing crappy wc? It takes a lot to empty your cup especially when you have made a large emotional, financial and temporal effort in something else....

    I like this quote. I learned a WC system with little regard to true structure for 18 yrs, then was exposed to and now learning a system with true structure, and let me tell you there is a big difference when you have it and when you don't have. If your WC is important to you, you will put the expense out to learn the proper way, if not then like Nick said you can spend the rest of you life doing crappy WC. Not all WC is the same or equal, is something I learned a long time ago.

    James

  5. #5
    "A common mistake is to try and hit someone before their structure is broken..." (Nick F.)

    ***DOES this mean that I should never throw a punch until I've somehow bridged to a point where I can work on their structure?

    Suppose there's no bridge (ie.- his arms are held very close to his body)...and I see an opening for a punch to land on a hard target - and I'm close enough to make it happen?

    I should not throw it? Because I haven't yet "broken their structure?"

    .................................

    "...or to break your own structure in the process of trying to hit (for example by overextending)." (Nick F.)

    ***AND what if I've decided to use a different structure from a certain distance that by definition is more extended than the wing chun structure, ie.- a boxers structure with a straight stiff lead or a rear cross?

    And in particular...

    What if I've decided to use that other "more extended" structure, (ie.- boxing), to get to the point where I won't be "overextending" if I suddenly decide to follow the rear cross with wing chun vertical punches - because I'm now at a slightly closer range - and the boxing punch has hit him - wherein it disrupted his "structure"?

    Is there a problem with this?
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 06-25-2007 at 09:24 PM.

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    This is an interesting discussion!

    Nic,
    I'd have to agree with you on a lot of what you write. Without proper structure, you really aren't doing 'WC' (at least from my POV).

    I have a few questions for you. I am suprised by some of the comments you wrote, nad am just seeking clarification:
    When you said "The body structure taught in CSLWCK is both complete and systematised. By this I mean that some other WC has body structure but it is not complete (they only have part of the structure picture so to speak) or they do not have it systematised (they dont have the forms or drills or understanding to pass it on effectively) - of course being complete and being systematised are closely related to one another."

    Could you please elaborate on how CSL is 'complete' when others may not be? A few more examples please. No offense meant, but could sound like a pretty big claim.

    Also, could you explain a bit more how CSL's complete structure is 'systematised' -in what regards?

    Thanks,
    Jonathan

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    Vic,

    Regarding an 'extended structure'.
    Not sure how a stiff lead or cross has 'stucture' in a WC sense since it doesn't really connect to the ground, the elbow is extended inside the shoulder dimension, etc.. It could be argued that a stick has structure, but you'd have to be more specific on how you define 'structure'. Are you talking the whole body, or just the limb?
    IMO, with a straight lead or cross, normally the elbow is rotated out, so it would be pretty hard to connect that through the body and into the ground.. So, I can't see how you'd be talking about any kind of body structure here.

    Jonathan

    PS James, Great point/post!

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    Or did you think people just give valuable information away for free?
    steve morris does this nick his fighters notebook youtube vids etc are
    an absolute goldmine of valuable information
    i have watched clips of alan n company training and i dont understand where his body structure is?
    if you watch this clip from his website at 37 seconds his body structure results in him being almost toppled over or pushed back by his partner

    NHB Wing Chun Extreme DVD intro.avi

    im not sure if thats a link or not?

    im not a naysayer or anything like that but this body structure buZZword seems to me (im not accusing/slandering just saying seems to me) to be just that,an advertising gimmick
    ive trained with steve morris and his body structure works 100 percent i couldnt endorse anybody more,but i dont wish to be rude so dont take this out of context , at time from admittedly the little ive seen of mr orrs body structure it appears sloppy , so that is why i m confused by this whole body structure
    i re itterate im not attacking or being rude just in the dark

  9. #9

    Talking

    The following statements worry me:

    "As the story goes when you would chi sau with Yip man 3 things would happen - 1) he would never step back, 2) he would never hit you 3) you would always be off balance i.e. either on your toes (falling forward) or on your heels (falling back). Thats a big hint right there. This tells you that Yip man had structure as these are the three big give aways."

    1. I do believe Yip Man (God bless him) would step back if Ricky Hatton laid a few body shots into him, or Quinton Jackson drove a steady stream of right crosses in his direction. To not consider back stepping as an option is to limit your options instantly. A classic ring fighting tactic is to draw your opponent into a false sense of security, through your retreating steps, which is the bait for you to explode into the offensive role.
    2. "he would never hit you", how can this be so, wing chun is rich in striking tools, use them or no result?
    3. Falling forward and back, what happened to working in accord with the forces applied. Adjust, align and action.

    I understand structure as being a combination of balance, frame and the potential to adjust to forces, that includes a strong jaw, ha ha ha.
    I cannot comment on Alan's method, only on my experiences.

    Regards.
    Steve G.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post
    "A common mistake is to try and hit someone before their structure is broken..." (Nick F.)

    ***DOES this mean that I should never throw a punch until I've somehow bridged to a point where I can work on their structure?

    Suppose there's no bridge (ie.- his arms are held very close to his body)...and I see an opening for a punch to land on a hard target - and I'm close enough to make it happen?

    I should not throw it? Because I haven't yet "broken their structure?"
    The situation you describe seems to be one in which your opponent has no structure to begin with so no there you would not need to break their structure first

    Also a punch can *itself* be a method of breaking structure...... so its not that you never throw a punch without first breaking structure - just that your emphasis when learning and training should be to try and break structure first (i.e. get that skill which takes time to acquire) since anyone can throw a punch without first breaking structure - its what beginners try and do after all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun View Post

    "...or to break your own structure in the process of trying to hit (for example by overextending)." (Nick F.)

    ***AND what if I've decided to use a different structure from a certain distance that by definition is more extended than the wing chun structure, ie.- a boxers structure with a straight stiff lead or a rear cross?

    And in particular...

    What if I've decided to use that other "more extended" structure, (ie.- boxing), to get to the point where I won't be "overextending" if I suddenly decide to follow the rear cross with wing chun vertical punches - because I'm now at a slightly closer range - and the boxing punch has hit him - wherein it disrupted his "structure"?

    Is there a problem with this?
    Do what you like - you can even mix your wc with catch wrestling - boxing is something different tho

    WC has both short bridge and long bridge but short bridge is our prefered method - but you need to learn how to move from long to short - this is what man sau is for plus the whole topic of bridging in general. Wing chun training starts from the short bridge (chi sau) and then you move out to the long bridge later (bridging/sparing)

    If you cant bridge properly then by all means add in some boxing to compensate for your deficiency - there are better ways to do it then hopping about on one leg tho imo.
    'In the woods there is always a sound...In the city aways a reflection.'

    'What about the desert?'

    'You dont want to go into the desert'

    - Spartan

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    Quote Originally Posted by chi sau View Post
    steve morris does this nick his fighters notebook youtube vids etc are
    an absolute goldmine of valuable information
    True but he asks for donations for his site, his clips only scratch the surface of what he shows on his DVDs (that he doesnt give out for free) and his site in general is to try and encourage people to come and train with him. So lets not be disingenuous about the business aspect (which to be clear I dont begrudge him or anyone else especially in view of the quality of his teaching and knowledge)

    Quote Originally Posted by chi sau View Post
    i have watched clips of alan n company training and i dont understand where his body structure is?
    Thats okay - thats because you don't have structure at least as we understand and use it (just as someone who has never grappled will not understand whats going on when they see a clip like this:
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=w1kLYq2noc8

    it takes a certain level to understand a certain level - this is not me being catty btw just honest)

    Quote Originally Posted by chi sau View Post
    im not a naysayer or anything like that but this body structure buZZword seems to me (im not accusing/slandering just saying seems to me) to be just that,an advertising gimmick
    I have a different experience - but as I said no one likes to think their WC is deficient

    Quote Originally Posted by chi sau View Post
    ive trained with steve morris and his body structure works 100 percent i couldnt endorse anybody more
    me neither - but steve morris doesn't do wing chun so i dont understand how its relevant to the topic.
    Last edited by Nick Forrer; 06-26-2007 at 04:26 AM.
    'In the woods there is always a sound...In the city aways a reflection.'

    'What about the desert?'

    'You dont want to go into the desert'

    - Spartan

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    Quote Originally Posted by chi sau View Post
    i have watched clips of alan n company training and i dont understand where his body structure is?
    if you watch this clip from his website at 37 seconds his body structure results in him being almost toppled over or pushed back by his partner
    I just watched the clip - he loses his structure and regains it - which is a skill in CSL WCK - but lets not take a 3 second clip from an edited sequence out of context and try and spin it to fit an agenda - the only way to find out about Alans stucture is to come and have a go - its not like we're hard to find.

    Here is a better clip

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=J2bhkTFjWKo

    BTW whats your name and where do you train?
    Last edited by Nick Forrer; 06-26-2007 at 05:36 AM.
    'In the woods there is always a sound...In the city aways a reflection.'

    'What about the desert?'

    'You dont want to go into the desert'

    - Spartan

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    Smile

    hello nick
    the name is paul and currently i train with friends in my back garden as i dont really see anybody doing what i want to do in clubs wc wise
    i mention steves structure because i know you and i both trained with the guy and i thought it might be some common ground you coud use to expand upon re alans structure but i guess not,also i have yet to find anything better than steves
    it takes a certain level to understand a certain level - this is not me being catty btw just honest)
    i trained wc for some 12 years before i went my own way
    and during some of that time i was an instructor so forgive me if i do take some offence at that remark

    i went to seni 07 to see alans structure in the flesh so to speak (i read on here he would be there but i went sunday and i guess i got that wrong,saw your match bw
    nice work)

    i belong to no organisations or clubs other than the bja so im like the swiss ,neutral but yet to be convinced by the body structure thing even though i keep asking all i ever hear is buy the dvds
    a
    it s highly impractical for me to come to london to train otherwise i probably would

    peace

  14. #14
    You should always be careful about judging a mans body structure by some video clip. Its almost impossible to do.
    The best way or maybe even only way is to go and touch hands with whoever your curious about

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    Quote Originally Posted by chi sau View Post

    i went to seni 07 to see alans structure in the flesh so to speak (i read on here he would be there but i went sunday and i guess i got that wrong,saw your match bw
    nice work)
    Hi Paul...sorry to miss you at seni. Alan *was* there on sunday. If you had come up to me I could have introduced you. Alan is always happy to chi sau with people. Stricker on this forum was there and wrote a report on his experience - maybe you should read that? I have ttt the thread although reading it it seems we are going over ground that has already been covered?

    You say you have done 12 years - ok, but that could be 12 years crappy wc right? We had a guy with 15 years come to the class recently and students of the same size with 1 year in were pushing him around. Obviously I have never met you so I dont know what your level is...maybe its great...but the fact you think Alan looks sloppy and has no structure is a red flag. Still you'll never really know until youve been on the other end of it.
    Last edited by Nick Forrer; 06-26-2007 at 06:14 AM.
    'In the woods there is always a sound...In the city aways a reflection.'

    'What about the desert?'

    'You dont want to go into the desert'

    - Spartan

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