Alan Orr Body Structure

[chi sau]

bows out of ,all attempts at "constructive discussion"
i was genuinely interested in having this body structure thing explained to me by you or alan

i genuinely did look for alan there but i didnt see him

peace

[Nick Forrer]

This is an interesting discussion!


Could you please elaborate on how CSL is 'complete' when others may not be? A few more examples please. No offense meant, but could sound like a pretty big claim.

In terms of SLT Many people sit back on the heels when they are in YGKYM, and the spine is bowed not straight. They therefore arent able to use the natural springs of the body to store and issue power. Any force applied means they have to step back rather than being able to sink and 'load' their stance with the force and thus 'recieving what comes' as the kuen kuit advises.

Then in terms of CK when they need to turn they turn away from the opponent or past him rather than turning into him and thus rotating him away like a spinning top. Part of doing this well is about not shifting the axis from side to side when turning, another part is using the K1 (ball of the foot) as the pivot point and not the heel.

These are just some of the structural deficiencies that turn up in other wck I have seen. If your SLT is off your CK will be off and if your CK is off then God help you in a real fight.

Also, could you explain a bit more how CSL's complete structure is 'systematised' -in what regards?

The strucutral mechanics are introduced on the very first day through the structure tests. They are then built on systematically. The forms, the drills and the mental methods i.e. crossing, asking, floating, borrowing, stealing, guiding etc. all follow logically from one another to give a student a complete picture. When you get to a certain level the structre itself starts to teach you i.e. there is a critical mass of learning where your structural understanding starts to snowball exponentially.

[Nick Forrer]

bows out of ,all attempts at "constructive discussion"
i was genuinely interested in having this body structure thing explained to me by you or alan

i genuinely did look for alan there but i didnt see him

peace

Paul at the risk of repeating myself READ the articles by Robert chu and Terence I have already referenced. If you cant get it from them then you will just have to come and train or organise a seminar. We had one recently in Leicester but you obviously werent there. You say its impractical to come but is it really? Alan had to travel to the US to get the body structure and Robert had to relocate from NY to LA to train with Hawkins. Is it more impractical than that? As I said wouldnt it be worth it if it was to radically change your wing chun?

[YungChun]

In terms of SLT Many people sit back on the heels when they are in YGKYM

Agreed weight on the heels isn't ideal. Using the whole foot is...

But ...

another part is using the K1 (ball of the foot) as the pivot point and not the heel.

How does one pivot on the heels without putting the weight on them... :?

As I recall we were taught to pivot from sort of the middle of the foot or closer to the middle, a little ahead of the heal... A more natural way to turn IMO vs, transferring weight to the heels.. Which would then ground you on the heels..

Then in terms of CK when they need to turn they turn away from the opponent or past him rather than turning into him

Seems like they would loose their FACING then... Somthing most WCK folks are aware of and trying not to do <loose facing>.. Not much new there..

[t_niehoff]

Some disjointed comments . . .

Nick is spot on with his observations. He's been to the well and tasted the water.

I've seen some of Alan's DVDs, and they describe and show what we who have trained with Robert call body structure very well. So they are definately worth the money. That said, it will be difficult for most people IMO to really learn, let alone develop, this body structure from DVDs. It is a skill that really does take some hands-on interaction with someone that already has it to get the feel for. If anyone is really interested in this approach, get the DVDs, and get some private instruction from someone with the skill.

Body structure has become a buzzword. Like so many other things in WCK, many people share the same terms. But the terms are not the things. And very often, it is the case of people using the same terms but meaning something very different. The way we use that term is to describe a specific way of using our body to generate and receive force (with our body, and not localized muscle). However, it is much more than that. How a person uses their body will effect everything else they do. Your WCK is built from the ground up, and your body structure, whatever it is, is the foundation for everything else.

Hawkins and Robert are not the only people who teach this body structure; it is present to some degree or another in a very few other "lineages" of WCK. It is clearly (from the POV of anyone who is familiar that skill) not a part of what most people in WCK do. One thing that sets Robert and his approach apart from others IME is in how he teaches this: from day one he explicitly and sharply focuses on this body-structure as the foundation, root skill of WCK, and has coherently put together a systematic way of teaching it, developing it, and using it as a bridge to everything else.

WCK, as I see it, is more than blocking and striking (even at the same time, LOL!), more than hitting the opponent and trying to not get hit: it provides us with a general strategic gameplan for fighting (the WCK faat or method). To appreciate this, we need to view WCK as an "inside", close range, fighting method (where we are well in the opponent's striking range). One significant "part" of that gameplan is breaking the opponent's structure (and of course not getting our's broken). Without body structure it is almost impossible to break an opponent's structure and keep it broken (and not have your own structure broken). The point behind breaking the opponent's structure is that it takes away his ability to attack and defend; all he can do is try to regain his structure (so that he can then attack and defend). If I don't break his structure and keep it broken when I am on the inside, its going to get ugly fast. Since most people in WCK don't have body-structure, they can't break and keep their opponent's structure broken, so they can't fight on the inside (and stay there), so they end up using either a kick-boxing model of WCK or kamakaze model (run in blasting and hope for the best).

Steve Morris's stuff is top-drawer.

[CFT]

Paul, you didn't say what part of the UK you are from. If you really want to try the CSLWCK method but can't make it to London, then Alan has quite a few students around the country who can teach you.

http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/instru...ctorslist.html

My friends have recently started training with one of Alan's students in the East Midlands and they couldn't recommend it enough. Take the plunge!

[Dan_chi_sau]

hey all,
yeah, CFT hit the nail on the head there, I started training with one of alans instructors a little while back. I would recommend anyone interested to go check it out. I did the same thing, watched a few 'youtube' and thought to myself 'eh?....don't get it'. I think thats the point, you're not GOING to get it from watching a dvd. Its a feeling, and you can only get that feeling by feeling it. Or from another point of view.......watching porn doesnt make you good in bed.
Now Im not trying to belittle any other lineage/style/family/organisation by saying this, I'm just saying that its something I'm doing at the mo, and I'm enjoying it, it makes sense and its effective. So if it interests you, go check it out.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"WC has both short bridge and long bridge but short bridge is our prefered method - but you need to learn how to move from long to short - this is what man sau is for plus the whole topic of bridging in general. Wing chun training starts from the short bridge (chi sau) and then you move out to the long bridge later (bridging/sparing)

If you cant bridge properly then by all means add in some boxing to compensate for your deficiency - there are better ways to do it then hopping about on one leg tho imo." (Nick Forrer).


***LOL with this, Nick. If you think mon sao/bridging is how to get to short range against someone with solid boxing, kickboxing, or Thai boxing skills - then you've got a big surprise coming someday. Please show me even one vid (youtube, MMA venue, some other tournament venue, streetfight, anything)...that demonstrates this.

And if the boxer guy is even slightly taller and with even a slightly longer reach - again, serious LOL.

You need to have the right tool for the job. And wing chun is a short range system. Period. When you're at a longer range - you need longer tools. Mon sao is a joke in this regard.

You want to know the real application of the wing chun mon sao?

Picture a Butterfly Sword in each hand as you attack another armed opponent.

As far as empty handed fighting goes - LOL with the wing chun mon sao.


NOW IF YOU WANT TO ADAPT AND MODIFY THE MON SAO PRINCIPLE TO A LONGER EXTENDED BOXING HANDS AND STRUCTURE, ie.- leads and crosses to his shoulder lines - as a means of bridging to a closer wing chun efficient range (or possibly hitting a hard target from a slightly longer range with a lead or cross) - then you've got something.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Don't forget that WC was designed to work against WC.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Some people will tell you that wing chun was designed primarily to work against a system like Choy Li Fut - a long arm kung fu system. But the structure of CLF is nothing like boxing in efficiency.

Not even close.

[YungChun]

Don't forget that WC was designed to work against WC.

Can't agree.. WCK was created to defeat itself? The opposite..WCK along with the other handful of last generation Hakka like, systems, White Eyebrow, Southern Mantis, Bak Mei, were streamlined and designed to deal with mainly the last revision of styles that were already prominent at the time...

[sanjuro_ronin]

When was the last time you saw WC work or even train against others?
Look through youtube, dozens of WC clips and I have yet to see one of WC VS anything else then WC.
Even the Demos is WC VS WC.

[sihing]

Don't forget that WC was designed to work against WC.

I don't know about that. I do agree that today alot of people in WC practice against WC, and IMO this is incorrect. You will more than likely NEVER meet another WC player in the streets, so why practice against the attack method and or defense. You have to apply it against various types of energy and or projections coming towards you, whether it is a right cross, jau sau, cranes beak or whatever, round is round and there are similarities with them all. The key is to don't chase hands, constantly attack the COG, and apply pressure at all times (when the range is right), putting the other guy on the defensive. Proper structure allows you not worry about people applying pressure on you, since you are able to absorb it and give out as well. If you have no structure, you will have to worry more about maintaining balance while attacking or defending, vs. someone with structure and forward force on your COG.

James

[YungChun]

When was the last time you saw WC work or even train against others?
Look through youtube, dozens of WC clips and I have yet to see one of WC VS anything else then WC.
Even the Demos is WC VS WC.

True for the most part.. But this has nothing to do with what the intention of the founders was 300 years ago...

This only speaks to what is going on now...On YouTube... Actually to truly experience what WCK is all about you MUST try it on NON WCK folks..

What sense would it make to create a new style designed to defeat itself? Systems are created to solve problems.. Problems in combat, eg other systems, other clans..other threats..

[sanjuro_ronin]

True for the most part.. But this has nothing to do with what the intention of the founders was 300 years ago...

This only speaks to what is going on now...On YouTube... Actually to truly experience what WCK is all about you MUST try it on NON WCK folks..

What sense would it make to create a new style designed to defeat itself? Systems are created to solve problems.. Problems in combat, eg other systems, other clans..other threats..

Ah yes, what we make of the blood, sweat and tears of the people of yesterday...

A travesty.