Alan Orr Body Structure

[r4cy]

I read the Alan Orr article from Martial Arts Illustrated, where he talks about something called the body structure from the Chu Sau Lei wing chun system, does anybody know what is this about? I hope I don't have to spend hundreds of dollars on his dvd's just to find out. Is there any new approach to wing chun apart from all the theories we are already familiarized such a s the centerline, triangle etc etc?

[Matrix]

Search this forum for the term "Structure Study Project" and you will find a few threads that may offer you some info about Body Structure.

[Nick Forrer]

Hmm where to start

Three caveats before I respond:

1) talking up your own lineage is a common thing in wc - everyone thinks the wc they do is the best/most original etc. No one thinks they are doing sub standard wc.

2) Anything I say will probably sound like marketing hyperbole/commercial puff - so sorry if it does

3) - I can only speak from my own experience in wing chun and although I have seen and touched hands with a lot of branches I can obviously not comment on all the wing chun out there

so with that said plus the standard IMO, AFAIK, IM(limited)E etc. etc. here goes

- The body structure taught in CSLWCK is both complete and systematised. By this I mean that some other WC has body structure but it is not complete (they only have part of the structure picture so to speak) or they do not have it systematised (they dont have the forms or drills or understanding to pass it on effectively) - of course being complete and being systematised are closely related to one another.

- Structure in essence is how we recieve force and how we issue force - If I have structure and you dont have structure you should be unable to break my structure whilst I should be able to break yours easily..... Once you have broken someones structure hitting then becomes the easy part. A common mistake is to try and hit someone before their structure is broken or to break your own structure in the process of trying to hit(for example by overextending). Therefore, In CSL WCK we always try to maintain our own structure whilst attempting to break our opponents. This IMO is the true function of chi sau and why it so misinterpreted by many (since neither they nor their partner have structure).

- good structure is not a fixed form (i.e. one static stance or position that can be frozen in time) but something we can dynamically adjust and functionally adapt to the situation we find ourselves in. This is why people look at our body structure and express concern that it doesnt look like wck - what this reveals is that they are looking at the external form and not the function (which is putting the proverbial cart before the horse IMO). Another thing they say is that we are simply collapsing our bridge and leaning on our opponent - neither are correct although someone with a low level of structural understanding may think this.

-One good way of understanding structure are the structure tests that sigung Robert Chu devised. There is an article on this on his web site plus another excellent article by the much maligned Terence Niehoff called 'what drives us'. I cant put it any better than Terence has put it there so go and read those two articles.

- Speaking of Terence - Structure alone isnt enough - you obviously need sparring and conditioning to be functional - but structure will give you confidence in sparring and against other fighters (e.g. boxing or wrestling). IMO without structure you are better off doing another martial art.

- As the story goes when you would chi sau with Yip man 3 things would happen - 1) he would never step back, 2) he would never hit you 3) you would always be off balance i.e. either on your toes (falling forward) or on your heels (falling back). Thats a big hint right there. This tells you that Yip man had structure as these are the three big give aways.

- If you really want the information either get the dvds, or come and train with us. Or did you think people just give valuable information away for free? If learning correct structure was to radically improve your wing chun wouldnt it be worth the money? Whats the alternative - to spend the rest of your life doing crappy wc? It takes a lot to empty your cup especially when you have made a large emotional, financial and temporal effort in something else.

[sihing]

...If learning correct structure was to radically improve your wing chun wouldnt it be worth the money? Whats the alternative - to spend the rest of your life doing crappy wc? It takes a lot to empty your cup especially when you have made a large emotional, financial and temporal effort in something else....

I like this quote. I learned a WC system with little regard to true structure for 18 yrs, then was exposed to and now learning a system with true structure, and let me tell you there is a big difference when you have it and when you don't have. If your WC is important to you, you will put the expense out to learn the proper way, if not then like Nick said you can spend the rest of you life doing crappy WC. Not all WC is the same or equal, is something I learned a long time ago.

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

"A common mistake is to try and hit someone before their structure is broken..." (Nick F.)

***DOES this mean that I should never throw a punch until I've somehow bridged to a point where I can work on their structure?

Suppose there's no bridge (ie.- his arms are held very close to his body)...and I see an opening for a punch to land on a hard target - and I'm close enough to make it happen?

I should not throw it? Because I haven't yet "broken their structure?"

.................................

"...or to break your own structure in the process of trying to hit (for example by overextending)." (Nick F.)

***AND what if I've decided to use a different structure from a certain distance that by definition is more extended than the wing chun structure, ie.- a boxers structure with a straight stiff lead or a rear cross?

And in particular...

What if I've decided to use that other "more extended" structure, (ie.- boxing), to get to the point where I won't be "overextending" if I suddenly decide to follow the rear cross with wing chun vertical punches - because I'm now at a slightly closer range - and the boxing punch has hit him - wherein it disrupted his "structure"?

Is there a problem with this?

[JPinAZ]

This is an interesting discussion!

Nic,
I'd have to agree with you on a lot of what you write. Without proper structure, you really aren't doing 'WC' (at least from my POV).

I have a few questions for you. I am suprised by some of the comments you wrote, nad am just seeking clarification:
When you said "The body structure taught in CSLWCK is both complete and systematised. By this I mean that some other WC has body structure but it is not complete (they only have part of the structure picture so to speak) or they do not have it systematised (they dont have the forms or drills or understanding to pass it on effectively) - of course being complete and being systematised are closely related to one another."

Could you please elaborate on how CSL is 'complete' when others may not be? A few more examples please. No offense meant, but could sound like a pretty big claim.

Also, could you explain a bit more how CSL's complete structure is 'systematised' -in what regards?

Thanks,
Jonathan

[Nick Forrer]

"A common mistake is to try and hit someone before their structure is broken..." (Nick F.)

***DOES this mean that I should never throw a punch until I've somehow bridged to a point where I can work on their structure?

Suppose there's no bridge (ie.- his arms are held very close to his body)...and I see an opening for a punch to land on a hard target - and I'm close enough to make it happen?

I should not throw it? Because I haven't yet "broken their structure?"

The situation you describe seems to be one in which your opponent has no structure to begin with so no there you would not need to break their structure first

Also a punch can *itself* be a method of breaking structure...... so its not that you never throw a punch without first breaking structure - just that your emphasis when learning and training should be to try and break structure first (i.e. get that skill which takes time to acquire) since anyone can throw a punch without first breaking structure - its what beginners try and do after all.

"...or to break your own structure in the process of trying to hit (for example by overextending)." (Nick F.)

***AND what if I've decided to use a different structure from a certain distance that by definition is more extended than the wing chun structure, ie.- a boxers structure with a straight stiff lead or a rear cross?

And in particular...

What if I've decided to use that other "more extended" structure, (ie.- boxing), to get to the point where I won't be "overextending" if I suddenly decide to follow the rear cross with wing chun vertical punches - because I'm now at a slightly closer range - and the boxing punch has hit him - wherein it disrupted his "structure"?

Is there a problem with this?

Do what you like - you can even mix your wc with catch wrestling - boxing is something different tho

WC has both short bridge and long bridge but short bridge is our prefered method - but you need to learn how to move from long to short - this is what man sau is for plus the whole topic of bridging in general. Wing chun training starts from the short bridge (chi sau) and then you move out to the long bridge later (bridging/sparing)

If you cant bridge properly then by all means add in some boxing to compensate for your deficiency - there are better ways to do it then hopping about on one leg tho imo.